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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

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Datun · 16/04/2017 09:18

Ah, I knew he was a bit of a sex pest. Voyeurism seems to be the hallmark of an autogynephile though.

The more you dig into this, the more it appears that cross dressing and AGP is so commonplace, it's almost not worth mentioning!

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 16/04/2017 10:52

The serial killer in Silence of the Lambs is a cross-dresser too. He's flaying college girls and using their skin and breasts to make his own female over-skin. Good luck remaking that without reference to cross-dressing.

Thelilywhite · 16/04/2017 12:07

Oh no I love Bates Motel ! Thats so irritating. A small irritation I grant you compared to all the other stuff but somehow this annoys me almost as much.....

birdbandit · 16/04/2017 14:00

Afternoon. Second all the fawning over a chaps input. Nice as it is to hear someone say the right stuff, I am more impressed when words and actions meet.

Sorry I got a bit angry the other day, good days and bad etc. I really do appreciate having somewhere to vent. Xx

ripples101 · 16/04/2017 20:54

Jonathan Demme, the director of Silence of the Lambs, received a lot of flat for the Buffalo Bill character. Hate mail and criticism from the gay and trans community.

Demme's next film was essentially a peace offering, his response to the gay and trans community. That film was Philadelphia.

ripples101 · 16/04/2017 20:59

In regards to the positive messsages towards me for my post - thank you. It means a lot. But I would like to echo what some others have said - I deserve no more thanks than the many who have contributed to this thread. All I actually did in my initiial post was state how much in agreement I am with many other posters here, and I don't deserve any thanks for that at all. The posters who wrote the comments to which I agree with are the ones deserving of gratitude.

I'm grateful to them. It was their words in this thread that encouraged me to contribute in the first place.

Datun · 17/04/2017 09:09

ripples101

I'm glad you agree with some of the sentiment here because transgenderism seems to have taken a detour from its original premise.

There was a transwomen on here a few weeks ago who was in her 70s. She said how surprised she was in 2004 to be told that she could now legally become a woman. She was pleased, but surprised.

She maintained that when she first came out, decades ago, there were only a few transsexuals around (a couple of hundred).

Like you, she was dismayed at the turn of events that has seen transgenderism now include a whole raft of people with a more dubious motive than both her and you.

I first heard about it in terms of the law about three years ago. This was when it was becoming clear that the law was being exploited. The second I heard a man can legally change his sex, the implications to women were startlingly obvious.

Men and women do have a completely different experience both to each other and, more importantly, of each other.

The fact that not one single person had enough power to put the brakes on the legislation, speaks volumes.

From what I understand it was implemented largely on the basis of the legality surrounding trans marriage, civil partnerships, etc. The parallel campaigning for gay marriage seems to be something that was used as leverage. There appears to be little objection on the grounds of what it might mean for women.

It's no surprise that the disagreements to the trans ideology are coming from women. It's no surprise that the slur TERF is aimed explicitly at women. It's really, really no surprise (to women) that most of the online debates with women degenerate into threats of violence and sexual abuse.

The ideology affects women as a class, more than anyone else. It is unequivocally at the expense of women.

I am sure you can understand how the more salacious aspects of the implications are unwelcome to women. Most people, men and women, understand this.

But for women, particularly, this is just more of the same old. Men (and it is mostly men) exploiting women for their own gain. Although now it is legally sanctioned and culturally accepted. Objections are over ruled and the entire production is celebrated - all in the name of progression.

GuardianLions · 17/04/2017 10:24

Great post Datun - I am afraid I am about to lower the quality of discourse with what I have been chewing over about transgender/sexuality in films.

About Silence of the Lambs (I have seen it far too many times), when Lecter is speaking to agent Starling, he brings up the idea of Buffalo Bill wishing to be a woman. Starling refutes transsexuals could be harmful because "transsexuals are normally passive". And I think in the story that is the first clue - Buffalo Bill is a failed transsexual (ie- not a classic homosexual transsexual 'entitled' to medical 'treatment') and to find him, agent Starling should look for someone who had repeatedly applied and been rejected for SRS. Lecter says "He covets. Where do we begin to covet? We covet what we see". Basically the whole suggestion of the story is that Buffalo Bill is an AGP who jealously wants to become a woman because he is sexually perverted - also that his first murderous obsession was enviously looking at and wanting to become his girlfriend and first victim - which was Starling's most significant lead.

Anyway - the whole thing was dramatised and sensationalised criminal psychology, in the same way, Hitchcock obsessed by psychology in all his films- the fact that Norman Bates wanted to become his mother tells of the huge authority Freudian psychology was given at the time.

Although it is fiction, I imagine the writers of crime fiction/psychological thrillers are much more knowledgeable about AGP within criminal psychology than the general population - probably even all the transsexuals who protested against Silence of the Lambs (and unwittingly putting AGP criminals into their own camp.)

My intuition is that psychologists, criminologists, etc have probably known about AGP linked to criminal sexual behaviour for a long time.

cuirderussie · 17/04/2017 10:31

Ripples yes but Buffalo Bill was based on Ed Gein, whose crimes were the same. Unfortunately there really are people out there who want to murder and mutilate women and stitch their body parts together so that they can crawl right into their skin and become a woman. It doesn't imply that all transvestites/transexuals are like that, or should it be not allowed to ever cast any member of a minority group in a negative light?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Gein

cuirderussie · 17/04/2017 10:35

X posted with you Guardian - agreed, and in the current TRA narrative, Buffalo Bill and other woman-hating fetishists would be welcomed into the ladies' changing rooms along with the transexuals who just want to quietly live their lives. Which is what gender critical feminists have been saying for years now, how can we tell the difference?

GuardianLions · 17/04/2017 10:38

Shock indeed. Gein was clearly AGP/necrophile of extreme behaviours - yuk.

GuardianLions · 17/04/2017 10:43

X-posted - with you again too cuir

Exactly, how do we know the difference?

cuirderussie · 17/04/2017 11:04

Ed Gein, with his mother-fixation and longing to "become" her after her death, was also an influence on Psycho. The whole central premise of which must now be censored because this never happens

birdbandit · 17/04/2017 12:32

The film : goodness, we live in a crazy world where it's ok to have the female protagonist murdered and mutilated, and not worry about the wider implications, nurturing steriotypes etc, of that!

The AGP was critical to the story.

What a time to be a woman, eh.

Datun · 17/04/2017 12:47

Totally agree.

Unless you have someone's Internet history tattooed on their forehead, you can't tell the difference.

So then you are left with women objecting. And your non predatory homosexual transsexuals who understand that objection, but still confirm you can't tell the difference.

But wanting you to know there is a difference, so you don't paint them in the same light.

In reality, what you are left with is still the demands to accept that men can legally become women. Still the insistence that performing the role of womanhood is either something that is necessary for their happiness, or something that is innate (and still necessary to their happiness).

I can easily accept the different grading, or 'authentication' of different types of trans.

What I don't accept is that I should care.

GuardianLions · 17/04/2017 13:06

I can easily accept the different grading, or 'authentication' of different types of trans.
What I don't accept is that I should care.

And I would say the onus falls upon the gay male 'trans' community to openly and visibly acknowledge the existence of, and cut all ties with the AGPs (particularly the piss-taking/violent ones), rather than lobby to erase them from popular culture to the detriment of women, as in this remaking of Psycho.

Datun · 17/04/2017 14:56

GuardianLions

I don't think it will happen, for two reasons. First of all the India Willoughby effect. She did just that, and then renaged three days later because of the backlash.

And secondly because they are still benefiting from the gains.

They may get some pushback from feminists, who are all too familiar with AGP, but generally they are benefiting.

Once AGP becomes more widely recognised, I suspect the in-fighting will really kick off.

EnidColeslaw771 · 17/04/2017 16:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cuirderussie · 17/04/2017 17:07

www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2197801/india-willoughby-transgender-newsreader-first-uk/amp/

Enid yes. If you read the quotes, they're all about clothes and hair, and then there was the awful comments about leg-shaving to Jenni Murray. I refuse to believe someone with severe lifelong dysphoria could do something as "triggering" as fathering kids. If Jonathan wanted to go around in dresses and makeup, fine, good for him being his true self. Elbowing into women's domains and loudly telling them they're not doing womanhood properly - a massive fuck off to that.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 17/04/2017 17:39

I don't know where to begin with the Sun article:

Who is India Willoughby?

India Willoughby is a 51-year-old TV reporter and journalist born Jonathan Willoughby.

Working a a TV reporter at ITV Border, Jonathan presented the news in the North East and Cumbria.

She has an 18-year-old son named Rhodes and is based in Newcastle.

In 2010, they quit their regional job in Carlisle, Cumbria, after ten years of the presenting their news show.

Five years later, they returned to TV and announced that she had transitioned to a female and was now named India......

Surely the TAs should be all over this as India has been 'dead-named'? Then there's the journalist flip-flopping between 'she' and 'they'. Makes your head hurt, for sure.

GuardianLions · 17/04/2017 19:06

Agree about IW being clearly AGP. It led me to wonder - who are the gay, effeminate 'transsexual' Mtts in public life? Whenever I think of Mtts in high profile roles in politics/media/lgbt/arts/religion -they are all AGP.

I can only think of how Paul O'Grady came up with his 'Lily Savage' character as a response to feeling so angry, as a social worker, about the way men treated the women and children.

Have I got a blind spot, or is it only AGP's that are getting these high profile positions?

(Btw datun I agree that effeminate gay 'trans' still benefit from a lot of the TRA agenda- and hair-splitting is likely to be an unproductive pursuit)

QuentinSummers · 17/04/2017 19:31

guardian maybe Nadia off big brother all those years ago?

cuirderussie · 17/04/2017 19:40

Or the model April Ashley? That was the 1960s though. Jan Morris?

Datun · 17/04/2017 20:08

Which ever way you cut it up, the AGP individuals outnumber the rest massively.

So this is not a disagreement with gender dysphoria. This is a disagreement with the fetishists all hijacking gender dysphoria. Getting all the limelight, all the celebrity and, most importantly, all the laws changed.

GuardianLions · 17/04/2017 21:17

Jan Morris has fathered a few kids - so I presume is AGP but April Ashley might be a good example. I remember being pissed off by Nadia from BB doing stupid things like wearing high heels in the shower and trying to get women to get their breasts out while he got his silicone ones out - really unaware of how vulnerable women can feel about our bodies... so I am not so sure about Nadia - but maybe.
Anyway, I think it is fair to say that it's overwhelmingly AGPs who are obsessed with encroaching upon women-only spaces whether it is using our facilities, presenting the flagship women-only discussion panel, trying to become NUS women's officer, joining women's cricket teams and all the other examples of elbowing women out of positions of visibility and leadership. It is AGPs who are obsessively trying to prove that they can do anything that women can and men can't.