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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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QuentinSummers · 14/04/2017 20:32

ripples Flowers I think it's very brave to admit you are a male who likes to present in a feminine way. Wish there were more out there claiming the transgender label like that

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 20:33

"How come we don't hear you telling the TRAs to cock off (pun intended)."

Birdbandit

I have. I have publically stood up to transactivists during protests. I have been banned from websites such as crossdressers.com. I have attempted to stop men dressed as women from entering women's toilets, and been thrown out of and barrred from the pub in question as a result of doing so.

AssassinatedBeauty · 14/04/2017 20:34

ripples I don't think you understand what male privilege means, and you have benefited from it during your life time. Which is not to say that you haven't also had a hard time from other men wrt your feminine presentation.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:36

batghee "fuckhole" is a term coined by the AGP sect of the Trans movement, not our creation. To quote my husband on Whisper "I want to be tied up like a slut girl battered in my fuck hole".

CharlieSierra · 14/04/2017 20:39

Men don't have vaginas. A vagina is part of the female reproductive system. It's still a vagina irrespective of the status of the rest of the reproductive system (broken or knackered), as it's on a female and is an actual vagina. Some men have their penis turned into something which looks a bit like a vulva and vagina, but it has no function other than penetration. This is not a vagina. HTH

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:39

Harsh?!? Please don't read Reddit or Crossdressers.com or any of the number of web sites linked to in this thread, it'll horrify you what men are saying about women.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:43

ripples thank you for your effort, please don't take my comment as a personal dig. The overall silence from the Trans "community" about the stuff being said in their name is chilling. Until the good guys start saying these AGP women hating/women fetishising men don't represent us, then they aren't the good guys.

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 20:44

AssassinatedBeauty

I know my own experience and the life that I have led.

You say I have benefitted from it during in my lifetime. So you know this (otherwise why say it). So I can only ask you - you tell me how I have benefitted from it during my lifetime.

No, actually, scrub that. I said earlier that I didn't want this to turn into a discussion about me. If you want to tell me, please do so via personal message.

My only intent in posting here was to give posters in this thread support and consideration. My overriding intent here was simply to say that I, as a transperson, fully agree with what has been said in this thread.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 20:45

ripples I would say you probably are objectified (I hope you haven't taken hormones or had surgery), and you have experienced homophobic bullying, but any male privilege you have is invisible to you as privilege generally is invisible to those who have it.
But that's not what I want to turn this thread into.
It is interesting that you can sympathise with what we are saying here rather than feeling affronted by it.

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 20:53

GuardianLions, I have taken no hormones or had any surgery.

And thank you.

Lessthanaballpark · 14/04/2017 21:13

I have NOT had a lifetime of male privilege. I have had a lifetime of privileged males belittling me because I don't match up to their standard of what a male should be.

Why are people laying into Ripples when his post has been so honest and sympathetic to the concerns feminists have with transactivism?

As feminists we are always saying PHMT patriarchy hurts men too and this is a classic example of the way in which it does.

A key characteristic of masculinity is that it defines itself as that which is not feminine. Don't be/throw/cry like a girl may create a feeling of inferiority for girls but are primarily used to put down boys and men (like ripple) who don't conform to restrictive notions of manhood.

So I imagine that many transgender people had a terrible time growing up. After all female culture is a lot more forgiving of non-conformity than male culture.

And therein lies the problem,as Ripples has quite rightly pointed out.

nauticant · 14/04/2017 21:27

An interesting World at One on Radio 4 today. It had a feature on 50 years of the decriminalisation of homosexuality and had a panel of Matthew Parris, Neil Bartlett, Anne Atkins (barking and dishonest), and Paris Lees. So, a couple of gay people, a religious person, and a trans person.

At one point Mark Mardell tried to provoke discussion by asking "gay and trans, are they the same thing?" He's not stupid and I did wonder whether the question was actually being directed at the producers of the programme asking why Paris Lees was on the panel. Matthew Parris gets it but was tentative in expressing his departure from the orthodoxy.

There are skeptics out there but it's currently a risky stance to make public. I keep on thinking about coming out as a skeptic to friends and then thinking "maybe next time".

25 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08lfcbc

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 21:37

nauticant no lesbians on the panel?

CountryCaterpillar · 14/04/2017 21:38

Oooh I heard that discussion today.

nauticant · 14/04/2017 21:42

No birdbandit. It was a cack-handed effort but illuminating nevertheless.

BigDeskBob · 14/04/2017 21:44

I thought pl "identified" as a straight women. Confused

nauticant · 14/04/2017 21:46

Maybe, but after a few seconds thought I just couldn't be arsed to give PL's potential "lesbianism" head space.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 21:49

Was it only male homosexuality that was decriminalised? Even so, bit weird to exclude lesbians, who must now represent around 50% of the gay community from the panel. But include a Transwomen and faith rep? Is Paris Lees on some form of retainer? Does she have a monopoly in the community, on making money from BBC interviews?

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 21:50

Oh please do not tell me Paris was representing the lesbian voice, that would be ridiculous.

nauticant · 14/04/2017 21:55

Was it only male homosexuality that was decriminalised?

Yes, the treatments in criminal law of the two sexualities have been very different.

Paris Lees wasn't presented as a lesbian more like a "me too" with nothing really to say. And I think Mark Mardell wasn't a fan of their inclusion.

picklemepopcorn · 14/04/2017 21:56

Female same sex was never criminalised, I believe.

Datun · 15/04/2017 09:43

Ripples

Thanks for posting. I believe you have done so before and it's always interesting.

Women's socialised empathy will invariably be pricked when someone makes themself vulnerable, as you have done by posting.

But it is that very characteristic, that has led us to this trouble in the first place. We want to be nice, we want to include, we see little point in confrontation for the sake of it.

Transactivists have exploited this and pushed women further and further into a corner.

The ideology is detrimental to women, as you have pointed out, and that is, inevitably, becoming clear. Women are pushing back.

You, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) are what we would have termed a transsexual. Attracted to men, not predatory in regards to women and with no fetish.

If the AGP crowd had confined themselves to secretly cross dressing while the wife is out, you would still be going about your business without being tarred by the same brush.

I understand your desire and need to separate yourself from these men. However, the fact that you call yourself transgender instead of an effeminate gay man pits you against women, despite you having sympathy for us.

Women did not go looking for this battle. The battlelines were drawn for us. We have been forced into this position.

Transgenderism is the problem, not you personally. However if you are transgender you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. And women will pick apart any aspect of your argument that reinforces that and undermines our name and our rights.

If women are given their identity back, it is not your type of trans that we have a problem with. Until then we are not, and cannot, be on the same side.

Women, especially feminists, know we are second class citizens. It's embedded into the fabric of our society. Tens of millions of babies are never born because they are female. That is male privilege right there.

You may have been persecuted for being effeminate or being trans, but not for being a woman.

This isn't a competition or a race, your experience is no less valid than a woman's. But like it or not, you are part of the class that treats women as second-class.

We're not arguing here over the colour of wallpaper, where we will start on a level playing field. We are arguing for the right to be able to accurately name that which oppresses us.

Transgenderism, whether it comes from a benign place or not, directly threatens that right.

GuardianLions · 15/04/2017 10:36

I agree with you Datun about 'transgender' being a problematic term. It legitimises gender.

I can see though how it might be difficult to define oneself (which I imagine Ripples has to do every 5 minutes - people are perturbed by ambiguity and I imagine a lot of social events include 20 questions along those lines from almost every person he talks to), and 'transgender' seems a convenient shorthand.

Because if you are an effeminate gay man (which is down largely to biology - if I'm up to date with current science) who also, for example, has long hair, wears make-up, skirts and high-heels - then there is more than just being an effeminate gay man to it....and gender....

I realise I was about to tie myself in knots with terminology about gender there.

How about "I'm an effeminate gay man who prefers wearing dresses". That would be clear and, although a bit more long-winded than 'I'm transgender', at least it is upfront and honest, without supporting genderism.

This would be a self-description that is more supportive of women... although I think it might be tricky to say out loud and proud when you've been a victim of a life-time of homophobic bullying, it would actually take a strong and noble stand against notions of gender for everyone's benefit.

GuardianLions · 15/04/2017 10:47

Also, I am aware that it is much easier for AGPs like Grayson Perry and Eddy Izzard to say "So what? I'm a bloke in a dress!" than for an effeminate gay man who has probably had terrifying crap happen to him all his life, but I would really appreciate such an act of solidarity with us gender abolitionists.

Datun · 15/04/2017 11:26

GuardianLions

Yes. Someone like ripples is experiencing first-hand what bucking gender norms feels like. It's not easy, you get treated differently.

It makes people feel uncomfortable.

Women who do this have faced the same treatment.

But everyone would be delighted if it was confined to 'gender bending'. That can only be beneficial.

Still can't change sex though.

Stop with the 'real this and real that' and we can all go home.

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