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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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Datun · 13/04/2017 19:54

I totally agree it should be sex dysphoria. But most people don't understand that. I might start using it tho. Also sex role stereotypes as opposed to gender.

It does what it says on the tin.

BMacklin · 13/04/2017 19:55

Rogue that's awful! Talking about his periods? - insane! And the damaging effect it's had on your relationship with your daughter is sad.

Sorry didn't comment earlier I've been busy with the family. Getting back up to speed now...

WobblyLegs5 · 13/04/2017 20:17

But gender is a real thing- it's the system used to oppress women. That exists, pretending it doesn't just because it shouldn't doesnt help anyone. And sex role stereo types maybe a social construct that are not at all connected to biological sex, but if if by 'gender' you are meaning man/woman then those exit also- woman=adult human female, and man=adult human male, so gender dysphoria works fine when used with the facts.

However, in terms of a diagnosis (and subsequent treatment) it would make more sense to have gender dysphoria as subgroup of body dysmorphia, as should the condition-name escapes me- where people feel they should have been born disabled and blind themselves etc, and eating disorders, including the one where people eat so much to become even more obese because that's what they feel they were meant to be. Then the treatment might be actual help, perhaps with some form of 'living as their perception of a woman' but the understanding that they are in fact not an adult human female

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 20:23

Also sex role stereotypes as opposed to gender
Yes I agree - it is so much clearer and avoids some of the confusion that politically correct pussyfooting unintentionally brings to the issues.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 20:27

gender is a real thing
I would think datuns 'sex-role stereotypes' covers it.
Gender to a lot of people means a form of 'identity' - I have no fucking idea what they mean when they say it though...

WobblyLegs5 · 13/04/2017 20:52

Which makes the term sex role stereotype dysphorIa then

Sex dysphoria doesn't make sense. People who have this dysphoria talk about having allways been feminine, uncomfortable around boys toys, being senstive and nurturing and having girls as friends not boys. So it's not solely about wanting to have a different body, and ofcourse plenty don't have full surgery. If it was just about sex then it would be just about the body, not about the stereo types they buy into when 'living as a woman'. If it was merely sex dysphoria those who transion would just have surgery & hormones without taking on a female name, wearing feminine clothes, make up etc that are what they associate with being a woman.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 20:56

Apols WobblyLegs my last post was blunt - I got distracted.
If someone says 'gender dysphoria' they could mean:

  1. 'sex-role stereotype dysphoria' - which would mean it is likely that the majority of people suffer from it- including me. Or
  2. 'sex dysphoria' which would probably discount a large swathe of people currently identifying as trans and be akin to body dismorphia. Or
  3. 'Gender dysphoria' a vague umbrella name for a wide range of issues including internalised misogyny, lesbophobia, depression, etc. And this is problematic because it leads to women like Max Robinson 4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/amp/ getting mastectomies rather than being encouraged to explore her own internalised misogyny- so I just don't feel comfortable using the term.
Datun · 13/04/2017 20:59

Gender is nothing more than a performance of personality. Transwomen perform femininity. They perform a sex role stereotype. Despite what they think is going on in their head, this is the reality.

Gender or sex role stereotypes are damaging to women. Gender sounds airy fairy, but sex role stereotype is what it means.

There are only two sexes. Any variation on gender has to, by default, include bits of each role.

Sex dysphoria describes being unhappy with your sex. If it was just gender dysphoria, you would just mix and match the stereotypical clothes of both sexes. You wouldn't need to say I am a man, I am a woman.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 21:01

Sorry I didn't see your post before I posted

CharlieSierra · 13/04/2017 21:14

On the big questions last Sunday they were on about gender neutral language. A young woman sat there and said 'I'm neither a man nor a woman'. She said she didn't want to change her presentation, which was just normal young woman. She insisted at length on the neutral singular pronoun 'they'. I have no clue what she meant other than objecting to performing stereotypes, which is fine, but why is that 'transgender'?
She was told that she was self evidently a woman and everyone got cross. Grin

Datun · 13/04/2017 22:03

CharlieSierra

I'm not surprised they got cross. Sort of thing that would make anyone cross.

I can't imagine anyone over the age of 25 saying it. Was she young?

PencilsInSpace · 13/04/2017 22:33

Couple of pages behind - QuentinSummers - tbf to MNHQ they have banned everyone I've reported, maybe we aren't using the report Button enough?

I don't want people banned or even deleted.

I want these people to stick around and be challenged to give their definition of 'woman' or 'female' or 'transgender' or 'gender'. I want them to be challenged on their lesbophobia, and on what their plans are to keep women safe from male violence, and children safe from medical and social harm.

And if they have no plans, or they have only shit plans which will harm women and children, I want that exposed. The best way to expose these people and their agenda is to let them describe it in their own words. So it's good if their words stand for all to see.

CharlieSierra · 13/04/2017 22:37

She was in her twenties, I'm hopeless at guessing ages but maybe 25 or so. She was extremely articulate, confident and opinionated, just talking bollocks. It'll be on iplayer, it was the middle section. It was frustrating because they were only talking about gender neutral language, so no one asked her to explain what she meant by neither man or woman. It would have been so easy to say well you are a biological woman so do you just mean you don't like the stereotypes associated with your sex, but I guess it wasn't part of that particular discussion.

CharlieSierra · 13/04/2017 22:45

I want these people to stick around and be challenged to give their definition of 'woman' or 'female' or 'transgender' or 'gender'. I want them to be challenged on their lesbophobia, and on what their plans are to keep women safe from male violence, and children safe from medical and social harm I don't disagree with this, but we get banned/deleted for challenging them. When one particular poster appears the delete trigger goes instantly into maximum sensitive mode. The ones I think should be banned though are the MRAs who just come to troll FWR generally and frequently make discussion impossible.

Original poster
Terfinator · 14/04/2017 00:41

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4409436/Caitlyn-Jenner-calls-Ellen-DeGeneres-memoir.html

The DM have done another article on Caitlyn. This time on her strained relationship with Ellen.

It doesn't seem that the DM is too fond of CJ, especially when compared to their articles on the Kardashians (who they love!). They seem to frequently subtly hint at the absurdity of the situation:

The I Am Cait star - who has six children and has been married three times in the past - had admitted during her interview with Ellen that she was a 'traditionalist' who never used to approve of same-sex marriage, but her attitude had changed in recent years.

As always, the comments are a good laugh...

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 08:00

The DM have done another article on Caitlyn.
From what I read (didn't watch videos) it seems that Ellen was being manipulative there, probably with the intention of exposing CJ as a right -wing hypocrite, (which suggests to me she is trying to fend off CJ appropriating lesbianism as well as womanhood). A bit underhand by Ellen, but a kind of self-defence against her being used by CJ as a tool of lesbian/woman erasure. So I think CJ's idea that it was to turn the LGBTQ community against him was paranoid and misread those motives. I think he is probably unaware of the controversies surrounding Mtts and lesbians.

Datun · 14/04/2017 08:06

Jenner is going to enter a mindfuck of mammoth proportions if she starts dating publicly. She is interested in women. Therefore she herself is a lesbian.

Her three marriages were lesbian marriages.

She knows she is a heterosexual man with a fetish. The marketing of transwomen are women might suit transactivists as a political move, but in reality everyone, including Jenner, knows it's not true.

I should imagine her raging sense of male entitlement is going to come up against a brick wall when she has to publicly renege on her 'traditional' views when she finds herself in a 'gay' relationship.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 08:24

Datun
I don't keep up with all this Kardashians stuff, so I don't know if Jenner is currently married/in a relationship or not. But something I thought was interesting about AGP learned through all the Bailey/Dreger reading was that AGPs are actually 'having a relationship' with the 'internal woman' they have created within themselves which means many of them avoid relationships with other people, or find a woman to enable them - and it seems that they also seek out sex with men to validate this 'inner woman' who is always the focus of their lust/desire. Agp is like an internalised narcissistic orientation of the sex drive that other people exist to validate.

CharlieSierra · 14/04/2017 08:51

I should imagine her raging sense of male entitlement is going to come up against a brick wall when she has to publicly renege on her 'traditional' views when she finds herself in a 'gay' relationship

But she's a woman, transwomen are women. So she's already had a number of gay relationships. Surely she must understand that if she feels all womanly?

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 08:55

Charlie
I reckon Bruce's poor wives were all probably aware of it- playing second-fiddle to his 'internal' Caitlyn in the bedroom.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 09:02

guardian not sure about that, took me 17 years into the relationship and two kids to work it out (ie find enough evidence to back him into a corner, so that he had to tell me something/lies/lies, more discovery/ lies). I am revolted at the thought that folk may view me as an enabler.

CharlieSierra · 14/04/2017 09:03

Yuk. I wonder if the tackle was a bit out of condition now by the age of 67 anyway? Wouldn't be unusual to have ED at that age anyway and with the hormones as well....

venusinscorpio · 14/04/2017 09:05

It's not your fault bird Flowers

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 09:14

Oh no bird I would never think of a tricked/manipulated person as an enabler.
Flowers sorry it came out that way.

I was sort of paraphrasing Bailey, who made observations that AGPs have relationships with women. Which I suppose reveals his sexist bias again - he presumed the female partners of AGPs were okay with it and the AGPS were open about it on entering the relationships- which we know isn't always or likely to be true.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 09:22

Oh no 17 years bird Sad
I hope you have support irl - that's a huge chunk of your life to come to terms with. Flowers