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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm Jenni Murray

721 replies

MercyMyJewels · 05/03/2017 18:51

Can we show our support for Jenni? I think she will be in for a kicking tomorrow

Thanks Jenni, for your bravery in speaking the truth

  • I'm Jenni Murray
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9
Stopmakingsense · 06/03/2017 07:03

Well done Jenni - for your simple factual common sense.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 06/03/2017 07:20

I have, Watery.

PoochSmooch · 06/03/2017 07:29

Mary, that's a tactic that is quite often used I think - bundling views together like that. "Feminists think x awful thing, therefore this feminist and that one are exactly the same". It's like we're interchangeable? There's nothing you can point at in JM's article that isn't fair or balanced or backed up, so they have to chuck whatever mud they can dredge up from anyone else. They might as well just say "this hateful old irrelevant bag is the same as that one" - it's clear that's what's meant. Grrr.

Anyway, I mailed woman's hour to say that if they even think about sacking Jenni Murray then they have wet noodles where their spines should be. Hope it balances out.

humourless · 06/03/2017 07:40

I'm Jenni Murray.

TheGrumpySquirrel · 06/03/2017 07:46

I am Jenny Murray. ENOUGH

FEMALES EXIST

LevantineHummus · 06/03/2017 07:49

Notwhatiexpected *
"I hope there is a follow up article, where they print all the "die cis scum in fire/rape" threats she will sadly get after that article, to demonstrate the problem we have here."*

Totally agree.

unfortunateevents · 06/03/2017 07:50

Emailed. Well done to her for being brave enough to say this.

WateryTart · 06/03/2017 08:21

Thanks, Empress

user1488787317 · 06/03/2017 08:30

I am Jenni Murray. She speaks for all the women who the trans lobby have bullied, manipulated, and tried to silence. If you are not familiar with the campaign of death threats and rape threats that trans are inflicting on women who question them on social media, then I suggest you go have a look. Just type TERF into Twitter etc. It's the new 'feminazi' and 'witch'.

ApplesinmyPocket · 06/03/2017 08:30

I've emailed. Brave Jenni Murray. At last there seem to be pockets of reality springing up again - brave little flares here and there daring to address some of the issues. For a while there the world seemed to be sleep-walking into a place where reality and truth had been pushed aside in favour of pretence.

Lalsy · 06/03/2017 08:36

Emailed. Thank you, Jenni.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 06/03/2017 08:39

Cheers Watery. Your name makes me smile Grin.

NamechangeSpartacusMurray · 06/03/2017 08:45

I'm Jenni Murray. Thank you Jenni. I have real empathy for people who feel revulsion at their bodies and believe they need surgery to feel at ease in themselves. Likewise, I have absolutely sympathy for anyone who doesn't wish to conform to gender stereotypes. I would imagine the vast majority of us don't confirm entirely because we are all nuanced human beings. If some people feel that physical traits and clothing typically associated with the opposite sex make them more comfortable then we should be working to make it more acceptable for anyone to look however they like, rather than saying "this individual likes dresses, gossip and shopping thus they are female." That just reinforces damaging gender stereotypes which say that women and men have certain innate character traits, interests and abilities.

I would like my young daughter to grow up knowing that she can be a mechanic, a pilot, a footballer, have short hair, wear trousers, be attracted to women and that none of those things mean she is masculine, or indeed male.

I am left-wing, liberal and have always believed in inclusivity. Like the overwhelming majority of MN posters that I've seen discussing this over the past year or so, I recognise that there are people who believe fervently that they are born in the wrong body and I wholeheartedly believe that those people need support, and services dedicated to their needs. But the recent rhetoric is to say that those people, by dint of feeling they are the opposite sex, therefore actually are that opposite sex. That ignores very real biological differences between males and females, particularly with regard to strength, hormones and reproduction.

We currently have some separate services for females, because it is considered potentially unsafe for women to share these services with men. If transwomen also feel unsafe without separate spaces from men then we need to ensure that such spaces exist. However, by saying that anyone who identifies as a woman is legally viewed as a woman, anybody can access any woman's space, not just women and transwomen but any man, who can simply claim to be a woman and claim transphobia if anyone questions his presence in a female only space. There is no way of distinguishing a genuine transwoman from a disingenuous man claiming to be trans in order to have access to women and girls in previously single-sex contexts, and that is where the danger lies, not with genuine transwomen.

In addition, saying that transwomen and women are the same skews statistics with regards to crime, representation in different industries, pay gaps etc. Which puts women at a further disadvantage as it could mask inequality. For example, if a company had a quota to employ more women in particular roles but privately didn't want to employ a woman because they might go on maternity leave, hiring a transwoman could get round that.

Lastly, biological differences clearly exist between the sexes- a transwoman competing at sports against a woman has distinct physical advantages. Women are routinely called for cervical smears and breast cancer screening, they can be impregnated; they have different anatomies and to deny these or to change language around these is to deny biological fact and cause confusion.

There needs to be a word for the sex class that produces eggs to distinguish it from the sex class that doesn't. And with those different sex classes come different hormones, anatomies, ailments and importantly- reproductive capabilities. We need language and laws that reflect these differences and what they can mean for those individuals and we had those, and have those. We now need to recognise transgender people and their needs as well and to have language and laws to reflect their needs which don't then put women, whose rights have been fought long and hard for, at risk or at a disadvantage. We need to support and protect women and transwomen and to conflate the two groups and their needs gives transwomen validation, and I feel for them in needing that, but I believe that both groups have needs that are ultimately more important than that.

intravenouscoffee · 06/03/2017 08:50

Thank you Jenni.

Backhometothenorth · 06/03/2017 09:13

Adding my support. Have emailed WH

HelenDenver · 06/03/2017 09:16

Yy pooch

Pastamancer · 06/03/2017 09:25

Have emailed in support too, I am Spartacus and now I am Jenni Murray too

MakemineaGandT · 06/03/2017 09:43

I've emailed Women's Hour:

"I wish to register my support for Jenni Murray in the aftermath of her Times article this weekend. Calls for Jenni Murray to resign are misguided and unfair and I trust that the BBC will ignore them as a result.

My own view, for what it's worth, is that trans people deserve all our support, understanding and acceptance. However, this should not impinge on the rights and freedoms of others, namely those of a particular gender by virtue of their biology and DNA. Identity and biology/DNA are different. Whilst people can choose to identify as whatever they wish, they cannot change the fact of their DNA simply by association and choice.

I believe that "real" women should not be forced to compromise their own identity in order to accommodate the identity of trans women. To require them to do so is unfair and also harmful.

I welcome Jenni Murray's view on the matter and I hope that those who now seek to vilify her are reminded that she spoke, not to curtail the rights of trans women, but to protect the rights of birth females."

IndominusRex · 06/03/2017 09:52

Email sent.

NamechangeSpartacusMurray · 06/03/2017 09:53

Great email GandT.

Riversleep · 06/03/2017 09:55

I've emailed WH as well. All the arguments here are sensitive and well thought out. Maybe as the Times has published Jenni's first article, they may be interested in writing a comparison piece, comparing the sensible and measured responses of women and the violent responses of the transactivists. They need to be called out nationally if they are making rape threats and then expect to be welcomed into women's toilets and refuges.

MadisonAvenue · 06/03/2017 09:59

Jenni has my support

Boofeckinghoo · 06/03/2017 10:16

Thank you Jenni. I have emailed my support too.

HemlockIsSpartacus · 06/03/2017 10:17

Just emailed Women's Hour to add my support

TwoDogs9 · 06/03/2017 10:22

Totally support Jenni Murray on this!

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