Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

I love her too. When she was interviewing India, she was so restrained. I had hoped that she was internally furious.

India's tweet was very telling. She said something about Jenni being 'still narked'. I wonder if there had been some less-than-polite exchange after the interview.

Yes, I will also write to the Times in support of Jenni's piece.

India Willoughby has been deleting her dodgy tweets. And tweeting that she will 'address' Jenni Murray's remarks tomorrow. I think everyone is supposed to tremble now

Jenni is Spartacus
I am Spartacus

I find it deeply ironic that transactivists are acting in such a manner as to scream "socialised to male privilege", in their demands and assertions.

Lovely

And another one India thought the better of

A Prince(ss) amongst (wo)men, this one

Juno Dawson on Jenni Murray "who is she to decide what a real woman is?"

Ha! India is the definition of undignified.

Yes, Juno Dawson is obviously qualified to define the boundaries of womanhood.

And no-one has been able to address a thing Jenni has said except for it's not true because feelz.

I suspect India is going to have to give themselves a good full body shave before they can show JM how to woman properly.

I'm still Spartacus and welcome to Jenni Murray.

'Juno Dawson on Jenni Murray "who is she to decide what a real woman is?"

Dear lord, the arrogance. And the stupidity

There's a crossdressing dad at an activity my kids do, he's straight, married, professional job and decked out in full make-up, dress, and heels. I'm fascinated by him and would love to know what he thinks of the TRA thing. I saw him going to the gents loo without being brutally murdered too. I think it's genuinely brave to stroll around like that and wish more men would do it!

Good for him cuir. I'm a woman and i get huge amounts of pleasure from make up, clothes and shoes and anyone who is interested should be able to do the same. None of those things have anything to do with being a woman - they are for everyone. I would be fascinated too though and would be trying to strike up a conversation without being too obvious!

I applauded every word of Jenni's article. I do so hope the tide is turning.

Yes Lotta we have a mutual friend so I'll be nosing my way into his acquaintance It's a shame men feel restricted in their appearance. I remember my eldest guy going through a phase of painting his toenails different colours when he was about five -and why not, it's fun!- until he shunned it as a "girl" thing.

Ha ha the comments on that Guardian piece...huge support for the very few comments in support of Murray that haven't been deleted. And very few likes for the comments left.

I've bought a ST and read Jenni's article. Loved the section about Rev Carol Stone who transitioned to a woman and despite all the issues that women priests have suffered and are still suffering, described her biggest issues as finding something to wear and whether she should wear make up.

They did grow up with all the privileges that boys get, but that doesn't mean their upbringing was as privileged as regular boys'. A transgender friend of mine knew something was wrong from about age 6 and was incredibly depressed aged 15 that they were being forced by their biology to go through the "wrong sort of puberty". They never claimed to grow up as a woman, but they did say growing up as a boy when they wanted to grow up as a girl, despite the disadvantages girls face, was very hard.

joff I don't think anyone disagrees with that but a less privileged upbringing doesn't make them women. Socialisation is how society perceives you, not how you perceive yourself. And regardless of how they felt inside, people will still have treated them as boys.
If privilege and socialisation was to do with internal identity, then all disadvantaged groups would need to do would be "identify" out. But they can't.

And actually if you follow that logically, trans people have disadvantages that they are erroneously trying to "identify out" of by claiming to be women. They would be braver to accept they are trans and face specific barriers and campaign to end those (or accept them) the same way other disadvantaged groups do.

This whole thing illustrates to the max the profound truth of Germaine Greer's line: "Women have very little idea of how much men hate them", doesn't it?

Whether it's womb-envy, oppression-olympics or whatever, the extent of the rage at the notion that women might have experiences and opinions and solidarity that men cannot share is really shocking.

...the extent of the rage at the notion that women might have experiences and opinions and solidarity that men cannot share is really shocking.

It's almost as though they think women are only good for one thing...