Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

YES. This is it. The tide is beginning to turn.

Thank you Jenni.

That's the kind of reason I gave up on the Guardian years ago jellyfrizz. They are much more interested in how they look to particular constituencies than having a firmly reasoned set of principles they're willing to stick to.

I totally agree with JM on this. No 'transwoman' can ever know what it's like to really be a woman. For a start they don't have proper female anatomy and you have to grow up as a woman, with everything that entails, to know how it really feels to be a woman. Like a real woman has no idea how it feels to be a transwoman! But there is room in life for both and I don't see why there can't be women, men, transwomen and transmen. Let's all just call ourselves what we are and be honest and stop trying to pigeonhole everyone as one or the other. Life is diverse. Let's just be honest about that. Not everyone fits into binary descriptions.

I did think the guardian piece is ok though? Didn't read comments!

I responded to someone saying why can't people identify how they like with 'Would you be ok with me (a caucasian) idenitfiying as black then?' and had my comment deleted
Da fuk? DH still reads the Guardian. I've largely given it up.

Great article by Jenni Murray and she has the clout to get people listening and thinking. I've joined Empress and others asking if we can have a webchat with her. Well, two actually. I'd like one to discuss today's article and another to talk about how women's lives have changed since she first started hosting Women's Hour.

India Willoughby is showing herself up and some, at least, of those reading her tweets are going to notice.

Totally agree with everything Jenni said. Well done her.

I agree with Jenni too.

I may be grumpy old bag but I have always found it shallow that the trans thing seems to be all about wearing a frock, heels and makeup. I think that is all pretty irrelevant to being a woman.

Someone from the guardian has already written a piece - I dare not read the comments.

It was a brave act to stick her head up above the parapet in the current climate. Kudos Jenni Murray

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/05/whats-next-for-the-womens-movement-march-equality

Meanwhile the Guardian celebrates International Women's Day by including Paris Lees in their list of 15 influential women and their thoughts

Apologies I skipped the page where someone already mentioned this!

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/happens-man-woman-welcome-third-sex-generation/

Stella - the Sunday Telegraph"s magazine today.

Unfortunately the online version doesn't include the title page which has 56 different boxes to tick saying "Which gender box would you tick?"

Utter utter madness - and looking at the boxes actually hilarious in a tragic sort of way.

I dare not read the comments

Actually a lot of the comments support Jenni. I am not going to bother to comment as I'm clearly on some Guardian watchlist - anything mildly GC I write is instantly deleted, even though I have always been very careful not to be offensive or misgender etc. I am sick of my voice being censored and they can fuck off with their constant requests for money

Actually a lot of the comments support Jenni.

Probably more than appears as I bet 99% of the deleted ones do too...

The only argument that seems to keep popping up is that trans women are women because they've also experienced hardship and discrimination. It's just illogical, and one of the reasons I'd put Logic on the national curriculum:

All women may experience discrimination

All trans women may experience discrimination.
Therefore all trans women are women.

Erm, it just doesn't follow, does it?

Really ? That does give me hope.

Anyone read the ones on the guardian fb page ? Those are usually the worst.

I am Jenni Spartacus

I liked this comment:

In my experience being called, "not a real woman" is probably a good initiation into what it's like being a woman. Perhaps we could all try and be kinder and less determined to set boundaries for other people.

Fuck off Guardian, you're a disgrace now.

disappointing that the Guardian article started with 'A chorus of protest – and some support ' - which is not what I am reading.... They then quoted Stonewall, but no quotes from women/feminist organisations. Reading the guardian comments I think people are quite ignorant of the issue.

Venusinscorpio - some how my feeling too. Not sure where I am going to read my news in the future....

When I saw the video and article on my FB this feed this morning I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I had imagined or misread the headline. It really is brave of Jenni to come out so publicly and say this. Thank you Jenni, I'll be writing in to support you.

user

All women may experience discrimination
All trans women may experience discrimination.
Therefore all transwomen are women

This one really gets me. Being picked on for being a man in a frock isn't the definition of woman.

And I get so bored with the endless litanies of woe being used as leverage.

I do love Jenni Murray.