Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

Yes I've noticed that too. And to call us privileged cis women. Odd.

Could it ever, ever be articulated, by anyone high profile, without fear of being called a transphobe, that transwomen and the movement can be, and are quite a lot, misogynist?

I've been following this and it's been well timed as I had a "discussion" with a colleague last week. Colleague, who is lovely, is about fifteen years older than me and quite alternative. I think as someone younger she was surprised when I announced I would never vote for the Green Party due to their "non-men" attitude, before moving on to my offence at the word cis and an empassioned defence of the need for female-only spaces. I didn't articulate myself very well, so I'm hoping that more articles like this might help people like her think fucking twice before mindlessly following the herd into erasing women.

My own "hold-on-a-fucking-second" moment was a few years ago reading a piece in Closer (let's gloss over that...) about a woman who was transabled and who felt strongly that she should be blind. She went to many doctors who, of course turned her away on the basis that she was clearly mentally ill and they couldn't in all conscience blind an otherwise healthy woman. In the end she poured bleach or acid into her eyes, which had the desired effect. I was reading it aghast when I suddenly thought "how is that different to transgendered people?". "Well," i thought to myself, "trans people aren't harming anyone but themselves". Neither is DIY blind woman. "But blind woman is mutilating herself, she's getting rid of working body parts"....you can see where I'm going with this. It left me uncomfortable, but it's only recently there's been space to vocalise a view other than the supercool "everyone be yourself!" line.

With every other type of dysmorphia, whether that's someone who thinks they should only have one leg, someone with an eating disorder who thinks they're fat, someone addicted to steroids because they think they're scrawny, Rachel Dozal, etc. the accepted trope is "that person needs psychiatric help". What's so different about those with gender issues? Where is the line where we stop treating and start enabling? Please someone tell me, because I would really like to know. And if your penis is causing that dysmorphia (and we accept that surgery is the best way to deal with that), wouldn't you want to get rid of it to reduce those feelings? Or is your sexual pleasure/feeling of superiority surrounding being a penis-owner more important to you than being as "authentic" as possible? Because, sorry honey buns, but there's no such thing as a female penis [sadface]

I want to end this ramble by saying thank you to women like JM and GG who have stood up for us and pointed out what we're risking here. The phrase "turkeys voting for Christmas" is an apt phrase for those who "don't see the harm" in this bill. It's also worth remembering that it's easier to win an argument with an intelligent person than a stupid one- bear that in mind when having "discussions" with TRAs.

It's also worth remembering that it's easier to win an argument with an intelligent person than a stupid one- bear that in mind when having "discussions" with TRAs.

Never a truer word said.

Main topic on gransnet, thread here

Thanks for that Dame. LumpySpacedPrincess articulates it very well.

DameDeDoubtance

I've just been reading it. I'm not sure they get it to be honest.

I am not an idea or a feeling a man can have

This!

"A woman is a woman if she feels she is a woman - what would Jenni Murray know about how it feels to be transgender! "

Oh, the irony!

CoolJazz

I agree. By concentrating on the socialisation of women versus the socialisation of males, she muddied the waters. Because socialisation is a natural progression in the discussion of what makes a woman, but it isn't the defining factor.

Stonewall say that anyone who doesn't believe they have a gender identity is trans.

So that's most MN feminists. We could universally identify as MNgender and demand our own specific facilities.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans

I honestly don't care who is trans. Trans away! Be trans. Be called trans. Not women.

I see loads of people asking what about the transmen, what about the transmen? If that doesn't show that this is a sexed issue I don't know what does.

Transmen aren't insisting on men accepting them as men. And even if they did, nothing would happen!

And can no one [obviously here they can] see the irony in the fact that not a single woman who questions this issue has called for violence towards trans people, but trans people have routinely and often called for and threatened violence against 'Terfs' ?

Another issue re trans men [women to me] Are they calling gay men transphobic for not wanting to have sex with them? As far as I know most trans men are not interested in other men? Many lesbians report that they are called transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman.

It winds me up that transwomen want in to the women's toilets to be 'safe', ie. they find women non-threatening, and men threatening, yet, we're simultaneously terfs and literally murdering them if we give them a scared look if we should bump into them in the ladies.

Either males are scary or they're not, they don't get to be scary to you, a fellow male (even if you want to be a woman) but not scary to females - that's totally arse about tit.

Someone on another board put it more eloquently, but the problem is that women aren't seen as a defined group, we don't get to have attributes, we are not man, rather than a woman, we are without a penis rather than with a vulva.

No one with a penis should be in the ladies (unless they're a little kid under the age of about six). I don't give a shit if they're wearing a dress, a wig, make up and high heels. Penises belong in the gents.

The Gransnet posters were starting to get it, but now because Lumpy Spaced Princess has left and hasn't backed up everything she said with links most of them seem to think she's making it all up.

Just when I thought I could not be more insulted by the BBC rebuking Jenni Murray for 'imparitality', I read that BBC Crimewatch reported a double rapist fetishist as a 'woman who dresses up as a man'!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFS! In english law RAPE requires a penis! In English law, women are protected from assaults on their dignity under EA10.

How is it NOT insulting to women to describe a fucking rapist as a woman who dresses as a man? How it that not insulting to women who have been raped, and our bloody appalling conviction rates in this country? Sexual violence against women is at over half a million crimes a year, nearly 100,000 of which are rape!

I'm absolutely FUMING

But well at least the sodding BBC are being 'impartial'

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/06/gender-sex-offender-bbc-crimewatch-appeal-attacker-could-living/

Correction they rebuked her for not being impartial ....

I'm quite surprised that the crime report was actually allowed to mention the rapist's male name. I thought I'd read that all references to former name and 'gender' were to be erased from (e.g.) medical records; if it isn't to be erased from criminal records, that's something of a relief.

Correction they rebuked her for not being impartial

Which is yet again insane - Why on earth can she not hold an opinion about something that affects her?

Are people who use wheelchairs and work for the BBC not allowed to write articles on issues with accessibility? Are black journalists not allowed to mention their opinion on the National Front? Of course they are, in a reasonable manner, barring insults. Jenni is allowed to talk about issues affecting women, in a calm manner, in a national newspaper. All else is insanity and discrimination. (it's not like there aren't plenty of male freelance journalists on the BBC who write columns)

I didn't see the show, I just saw some women talking about it in disbelief in another group I follow. And yes I think medical records are sealed if someone has a GRC. Ditto credit records I think, might be wrong on that.

Not sure how criminal records would work, there must surely be some system?

I'd love to know what the police, off the record, think about all this.

I was also reading that another woman complained about something else to do with trans to the BBC and was told 'woman' was a SYNONYM. I kid you not.

Only tangentially related but there is a series on CBBC now, called "My Life" one of which is called "What is a girl?" apart from the conflation of sex and gender throughout it was actually pretty good. Lots about tomboys who want to be be boys so they can do not things, but they are still girls. And how girls can dress in traditionally boy clothes and are still girls etc.

I thought it was a good antidote to the "I am Leo" crap.