Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

Marking to read later

womanscorned I've had the same. I've been called 'vile' and 'nasty' by an extremist feminist commenter just for sharing the link-she hadn't even read the article! I hadn't put my explicit views on the subject either way as I hate spats on fb with keyboard warriors and just wants to share information. Wish her comments hadn't affected me but I'm finding it hard to shake off - I've been labelled transphobic, shit-spreader and anti feminist - all of which I am not and work hard not to be! I just see things differently. Sigh ...

CaptainWarbeck, the incredibly sad life of David Reimer isn't a case that can tell us anything useful about supposed male/female brains. The poor child was abused by doctors and treated very oddly by his parents. He was raised as a boy until nearly 2 years old, and his parents knew he was a boy even though they attempted to raise him as a girl, whatever that means, presumably foisting stereotypes on him. Foisting feminine stereotypes on girls often doesn't work either!

Other cases where children have ambiguous genitalia are intersex, and how that should be handled is something that needs a lot of careful thought. I don't think intersex is relevant to non-intersex people identifying as the opposite sex.

Intersex people have asked on numerous occasions not to be co-opted into transgender activism.

"'Can I ask people's thoughts on the issue of being 'born in the wrong body' "

My thoughts on this is that we are not 'born into' a body, but with a body - our body. I think it's a pernicious phrase that people have picked up and use without giving any thought to any logic or science.

I do however have every sympathy with people with dysphoria, it's obviously distressing, and I want them to have support and kindness and the right to present and wear whatever they please. But it's not possible to change sex. Being 'assigned male/female at birth' is a nonsense and I feel despair to see it used everywhere these days. We are 'recognised as of the male/female sex at birth' - there's no decision or choice made by the person who first sees the baby!

Thanks those who've replied, really interesting to read your thoughts.

Julie Bindel on Sky today. She was fantastic

news.sky.com/watch-live
About 90 mins in

I love Jenni Murray for saying this. She is the only one brave enough right now to tell the truth and she knows the backlash she will get. Hopefully others will follow her lead and feel more comfortable addressing this honestly now.

I've just looked at the petition to have Jenni fired. I see that half the comments are from people who signed up purely to put the opposite view and to support Jenni.

Um, I really hope that doesn't backfire, as every additional signature is simply being tallied as a vote for her resignation.

Yes I saw that. There is a bit of a campaign so that people could post comments. It's a bit risky as you say.

Any Reddit Terfs around to add some much-needed logic to this thread?

www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/5xnjaa/jenni_murray_trans_women_shouldnt_call_themselves/

Yes that confused me too.

Has woman's hour shut down their Twitter account? I was going to tweet my support but their page shows no tweets?

I can see tweets, last one from 2hrs ago posting a video.

Ha "it's like trying to explain why the sky is blue, you can't, it just is"

Or you can use science.....

Where do these people come from?

Just watched Julie Bindel on that link upthread.

She was fucking excellent.

Yes found it now, I followed a mention in a TA tweet, I think they might have set up a fake account for woman's hour?

Jane - "Transgender people are scared of being interviewed by Jenny Murray..."
Julie - "Women face all sorts of violence and threats and you're scared of being in a studio with Jenny Murray? You don't know you're born, you don't know you're born!" - fabulous Julie cutting thorough the bullshit.

Yup, Ben, it was that bit that clinched it for me.

Julie was shaking with laughter as the interview ended.

BenLinus the "you don't know you're born" bit had me cheering, too. I think that cuts to the heart of it: people who were born male, have lived their whole lives as boys and then men, blissfully unaware of the sea of privilege they swim in, and when they come to behave as someone who gets shit (either because they are perceived as trans or because they are perceived as women - either works) they think they are the MOST OPPRESSED EVAH because they have never really noticed or believed women when women tell them what life is like as a female.

Anyway, I rang the BBC comment line to leave my appreciation of Jenni, and of Women's Hour.

The sky is blue because physics, basically.

Or, I suppose because biology, in that we see that range of wavelengths well enough to distinguish the red end from the violet.

Or because we like to name things, like 'blue' or 'female'. I suppose they could have a point is that's the analogy they're using but I suspect they're probably not

She's right. If the BBC sack her after keeping Jeremy Thugson I'll be provoked in to marching with a placard outside the BBC