Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

If you talk about your periods, apparently people will actually be so hurt that they will die, so that just about sums it all up.

Jenni, thank you.

"Why are all the negative responses to Jenni Murray talking about her appearance as though that is part of this debate?"

Because of course it's part of the debate. A woman's appearance is the most important thing about her. Don't you know that the function of a woman on Earth, is to give men a boner and those women who aren't doing that aren't fulfilling their function as a woman and are therefore not even entitled to speak about anything, let alone about something of no interest or importance to men, like the nature of womanhood?

Tut tut, you talk about women as if they might actually be human, just like men and therefore entitled to just live and be and speak out on stuff they feel is important, whatever they look like. Just like men. That's where you keep going wrong. You need to remember that we're here to serve men and a massive part of that job, is boner-maintenance. If we're not doing that, all men everywhere, however they identify, are entitled to bring it into any debate, as it's very, very, very important.

Wow; I braved sharingbthe Jenni Murray article on FB and have since been having a civil conversatuon with some transwomen, who state that they don't feel the need to be called women. Unfortunately, the 'feminist' who has just joined the conversation wants to convince them and me that their bodies and their life experiences are just the same as mine and that Tara Hudson was never any threat to women prisoners...

Gah, should have reviewed my post;:hope it's readable.

Tell that presumably intersectional feminist she's appropriating the struggle of transwomen and talking for them and as a ciswoman it's not ok.

"Why are all the negative responses to Jenni Murray talking about her appearance as though that is part of this debate?"

Because transgender politics is deeply invested in upholding the social hierarchy that is gender. Misogyny is a key means of upholding gender, so transactivists use the tools and language of misogyny.

I might just do that, venusinscorpio.

I was so glad JM addressed the topic of suicide statistics which are often wrongly quoted and often used to persuade parents to go along with their kids' self-diagnosis of trans. Am hoping that more parents will have the confidence to be more critical with a child with sudden onset of trans identity

Well done jenny.

Womanscorned

If you do, please let us know what she says

Thank you Jenny!!!

I think something that hasn't really been explored is whether the 'trans women are women' mantra erodes and devalues the unique trans experience. Personally I feel the things I've been through, the childhood I had, etc shaped the unique human being I've become. Some of it was painful. Some of it I'd rather forget, but I know it's all there in the lines on my face and the sag in my belly. I can't believe trans women really want their pasts erased and homogenised any more than I do as a woman.

The news has even reached Down Under, even though no one here has heard of her. An article clearly written by someone who has no idea of the critical issues relating to trans ideology:

www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/bbc-radio-hour-presenter-dame-jenni-murray-criticised-for-stance-on-trans-women-20170305-guraub.html

God, the comments under that article are depressing. And mostly by men, unless I'm violently misgendering a lot of Ians and Peters out there. 'Gah, wimmin, they're like so privileged they don't know they're born. Whaddya mean, misogyny, ya bitch?'

Does anyone know whether India Willoughby has had enough time yet to formulate a response on Twitter to what Jenni said?

I think it's rather telling that she has needed all night to come up with something.

Finally been able to read the whole article on gendertrender:

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/bbc-womens-hour-host-jenni-murray-be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman/

I think it's rather telling that she has needed all night to come up with something

Must be that ditzy lady brain of hers..

God, the comments under that article are depressing. And mostly by men, unless I'm violently misgendering a lot of Ians and Peters out there. 'Gah, wimmin, they're like so privileged they don't know they're born. Whaddya mean, misogyny, ya bitch?'

YY Kitties I've noticed a lot of seemingly straight white guys with similar comments. Astounding displays of mansplaining. Why do they do it? Is it virtue signalling? Straight up misogyny?

I hadn't previously heard of this India person so I looked her up.
I'll give her credit for doing the transgender thing properly and having the full physical treatment. It shows she is genuinely serious about wanting to be a woman. She would pass my criterion of 'no penis in womens' spaces'.
But it stops there.

I suspect it's mostly men because plenty of women who disagree just don't want to have to listen to the violent ranting they'll get for arguing.

My own (rather nice) son does a certain amount of it - not the violent disagreement, more the 'people are different, some are trans, get over it'. His school apparently had several trans kids, accepted by the nicer half of the year, picked on by the usual suspects. Of course he wants to be seen as accepting, kind and understanding, which he interprets as 'unquestioning'.

Kittie Your son is like lots of liberal feminists who just want to be nice to everyone, accepting kind and understanding. Feminism though has never gotten anywhere without a (sometimes violent) struggle. Being nice just means moving over and making space in the current transactivist climate.

Oh, he's blind to a lot of things, including sexism, on the grounds that he hasn't experienced them personally.

He would say the same about me: 'You just don't understand trans people because you aren't one! Charlie's lovely!'

Sure. But Charlie's loveliness isn't a good basis for law.

You can support people's rights to decent, humane and non-judgmental treatment without agreeing wtih everything they say though.

My teenage son has gone the full Terf - he commented the other day apropos of some trans story or other:

"See, the thing is, if a woman walked into the men's changing room and started stripping off, it would be really awkward and everyone would feel really embarrassed. But they woudn't feel scared or threatened. Whereas if a bloke walks into the ladies changing room and started stripping off, that's completely different, it's really threatening, so of course women don't want that."

I had a bit of a 'my work here is done' moment.

Can I ask people's thoughts on the issue of being 'born in the wrong body' - which from reading on here seems not to be a popular view. MN's view from what I've seen seems to be that a female brain and a male brain doesn't really exist, so you are shaped by your experiences growing up in the world.

What about kids born a few decades ago who had ambiguous genitalia and were given (often feminizing as it was easier) surgery at birth and therefore 'allocated' a gender. Some of these ended really sadly, with the kids identifying as their chromosomal sex rather than their gender allocation as they grew up, and suffering through this experience. Link here to a case of botched surgery and gender allocation.

Does this provide some evidence that people can have an innate sense of male/female, rather than trans people purely having a psychological issue with their sex at birth?

Not trying to be reactionary, just trying to get a better understanding of something I know is a very difficult issue.