Jack Monroe

[MercyMyJewels]

twitter.com/MxJackMonroe/status/822996532228227078

Welcome back Jack

Scruffy
No radical feminist will deny that patriarchy harms men too. No radical feminist thinks that toxic masculinity is beneficial for anyone.
But. Regardless of how you feel about stereotypes of masculinity, you still benefit from male privilege. Feminists might see your point but we aren't going to feel sorry for you tbh.
And by the way - you're a man because you have a cock and balls. HTH.

"No radical feminist will deny that patriarchy harms men too. No radical feminist thinks that toxic masculinity is beneficial for anyone."

I would actually (as would every other radical feminist I know or have read). Men as a class benefit from it. Else why do you think it has persisted for so long, just some kind of sad accident that harms males just as much as it harms females????.

Okay, it isn't sweetness and light for all men under patriarchy, but why do we need to mention them compared to the harm done to women? Isn't that enough evidence that it is a BAD thing......................Else you're into the racism harms white folks too area................

Men as a class benefit from patriarchy, but men as individuals, are harmed by it.

Not nearly as much as women are, but nevertheless, harmed.

You can benefit from a class advantage while also being harmed. Like upper class boys being sent away to public school at the age of seven, where the business of brutalising them properly for their roles as enforcers of the British Empire and patriarchy could begin. They were deprived of love, nurture, normal functional family life. But when they grew up, they wielded astonishing amounts of power.

Life's full of contradictions

^ yeah that's what I meant
Worded badly, obviously men benefit under patriarchy, that's what male privilege is all about, but doesn't mean they aren't harmed by it.
Anyway, point being that's men's struggles to deal with and scruffy was veering dangerously close to what about the menz then.

I'm not sure I believe that is the case.

Surely some individual men benefit greatly from patriarchy. They are able to access women, children, other men and resources that they would never be able to access or control without patriarchy.

Oh yes, of course individual men benefit as well, of course they do.

All men benefit and many men are harmed.

And the benefit outweighs the harm, or at least men as a class have decided it does, otherwise they'd have dismantled patriarchy and not deny it's there.

They benefit massively. But there is a cost and that is that they can never truly be the human beings they would have been. They have to cut off part of their humanity if they are to perform masculinity to an extent that other men will allow them to function.

But they're willing to do it, to keep the guarantee patriarchy makes them: that unlike any other mammal on the planet, most of them will mate, no matter what indifferent specimens they are. And of course, they will always have the comfort of believing themselves superior to about half the people they know. Which is nice and well worth the loss of some of your humanity. Apparently.

I really like what Grayson Perry has got to say about all this stuff. He's that rare thing, a genuinely interesting man. His programmes on masculinity are well worth a watch, for anyone who didn't see them.

augustbody

And in Mrs Gloss, I also posted more masculine photos, admitted I played with makeup and it was new to me but I was enjoying it, enjoyed being confident instead of feeling like a twat. I thought Gloss had a confidentiality thing about it and this is the second comment I've had about it in here, so I won't be posting there again. There's always one or two that can't resist being that person, isn't there?

I went for lunch with a male friend yesterday who happens to be on TV. Tall, strong, straight, masculine, gorgeous. And we sat and talked about makeup, how great those spray gun foundation airbrush things are, hair, concealer and highlighter. Doesn't make him a woman ffs.

That was a bit snappy, and I apologise, but I'm kind of tired of the incessant scrutiny. I mean it when I say I prefer a quiet evening on my own or with SB (DS6) - it didn't occur to me when I was cautiously experimenting with makeup in a way I wished I had had the courage to do 15 years ago, that people would be sitting on the sidelines snarking about that. It's an unbalanced relationship, being in the public gaze, and when you can't even forget a comma without getting death threats, or try a lipstick in a closed facebook group without people bitching about it, well, it's thoroughly depressing actually. I can take criticism on the chin, but this 'gotcha' mentality is something else entirely, something smug and ugly and just not cool.

Tbh I don't see why the make up thing is in any way relevant to anything . Why have people even brought it up?

Augustbody's comment was uncalled for!

jack I am surprised that what make up you've played with is interesting enough for people to feel the need to post it here! That's aimed at them not you! You have every right to wear whatever clothes/make up you want ffs.
Plus I'm sure 100% of us would be criticised regarding our parenting if we were in the public eye.
Honestly why some women have to be so judgmental of other women I don't know.
The report about female MPs shows how much entirely unjustified shit women in the public eye put up with, anyone who does that day in day out is brave. Hats off to you

experimenting with makeup in a way I wished I had had the courage to do 15 years ago

Ah, Jack. I'm going to ruin all my newfound, fledgling credentials here, but I loved experimenting with make up at that age. We weren't allowed any in school, apart from a slick of Vaseline across the lips (decades ago). And yes I was probably influenced by the media and how women should present themselves but I loved trying out new stuff.

There was no social media and anyone in the public eye was protected far more than they are today.

Anyone with an ounce of self doubt in the spotlight today is going to have a tough time.

There is a great talk by Simon Sinek about Milennials in the work place today and growing up with social media (anyone born between 1990 and 2000, so almost you).

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hER0Qp6QJNU

• feminist credentials, not fledgeling, although they are fledgeling.

And that talk is worth a look out for anyone who has children because although it applies to millennials entering the workplace, the problems start a lot younger than that.

I really hate the sniping and sneering that goes on in FWR about any one who does wear make up or "stupid shoes" or (current thread on that) or dresses.

If called out on it, it will always be denied "of course women can wear what they want" but there's always a hint of an underlying sense of superiority in the posters who proclaim they never wear make up, dresses, heels etc.

They see through all the frippery and aren't mindlessly "performing femininity" .

Yes but wearing shoes/high heels that folk can hardly walk in just because of how they look - is a bit stupid. Dresses are great - often more comfortable and cheaper than the likes of jeans and a shirt.

There's nothing wrong with wearing makeup, dresses, heels , etc if there's no coercion involved.
A positive way of looking at wearing makeup is looking at it as body or facial art.There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Bambambini it's choice, isn't it. Some women absolutely love their high heels and don't care if it limits their mobility. Thats their choice.

Yes - their choice, i just think it's a stupid choice. I wear heels rarely, I'm not immune but they are a stupid invention.

Lass

augustbody is hardly a regular on FWR and indeed doesn't seem to have been on MN long. And several replies before yours criticised what August said.

Jack, you can't post on mrsgloss that much, I've never seen you!
And I like, live on social media

THere is no need for nastiness about you posting on FB.
But it is relevant in the context of things you have posted in the past.
I dont think you can criticise anyone for being confused.

Did you really think a FB group with tens of thousands of posters was confidential? With your experience of social media I am astounded at that.

FWIW I thought you looked lovely in those photos. Just because I find some of your statements confusing doesn't mean I hate you or am some sort of troll. My post had fuck all to do with 'gotcha'. It was genuinely and I think your amazement at that confusion disingenuous.

I am further confused by your use of the word 'masculine'.

This whole thing (not you in particular) seems almost gaslighty. There is no way that people, even those who really want to understand and avoid offence, can get it right.
There is no such thing as masculine except for when there is.
Make up is not a woman's thing except for when its being rejected as a symbol of femininity.

I want people to be happy and comfortable and be allowed to go their own way.
But when you are doing things differently and talking about them a lot you will get people asking questions and making comments.

Its unfair to behave as if they are being unkind. Particularly in light of you being at the receiving end of similar comments.

There are clearly drawbacks to celebrity but one of the advantages is that pretty much anyone who questions you on MN gets a flaming.

I think I'm pretty patient with criticism actually, and certainly not 'flaming' or 'gaslighting'. I did post masculine photos as well as made-up ones. I talked openly about being trans a few months ago in that group. I'm certainly not naive about social media but Gloss felt like a safe group to explore in. A lot of those pics made it to twitter, so it's not the photos per se that I'm hurt about, it's that I opened up quite personally in a closed group and was genuinely stunned to see that being bandied around here.

The 'gotcha' comment was at august, not you.

I'm over it. Every day is a learning day. I'd like a quiet life and a bit less snark, please. It's all literally driving me insane.

For what it's worth Jack, I hope you find what you're looking for in life. You seem a good person, who is honest about their feelings and I can't see anything to criticise about that. I'm sorry you've had such an angry reaction from the same people as GC feminists have, it really unpleasant being told to die all day.

I'm sorry if that sounds patronising, it is kindly meant.

I don't think it sounds patronising Xeno, I think it's a lovely message :)

Hi mxjackmonroe, nice to see you here again.

I do think it is a bit unfair for people to use "attention-seeking" in such a derogatory way. People do need attention, all of us are here essentially to talk things out and put whatever we're thinking about in the context of others' attention. It's helpful, even when it's uncomfortable, and if we didn't think so none of us would ever talk to anyone.

None of us has it all worked out. Let's keep talking about it all.