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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Jack Monroe

325 replies

MercyMyJewels · 22/01/2017 17:52

twitter.com/MxJackMonroe/status/822996532228227078

Welcome back Jack

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AskBasil · 24/01/2017 19:10

Seriously Jack, you do not have to explain yourself to Livia or anyone else.

I hope you're not getting too much shit on Twitter.

I second whoever said block and delete anyone who gives you shit. People can question you, disagree with you etc., without threatening or insulting you.

mxjackmonroe · 24/01/2017 23:12

It's fine - it's good to get a bit of criticism sometimes as it helps knock off the rough edges - I view social media as a window not a mirror, and people who just surround themselves with sycophants turn into insufferable cunts quite quickly.

venusinscorpio · 24/01/2017 23:16

I think that's a very healthy and self aware attitude to take with it.

BeyondCanSeeTheEmperorsBellend · 25/01/2017 11:27

Hi again @mxjackmonroe. I wanted to say before now how nice it is to see that you're getting support from the women here after the shit I've seen flung in your direction elsewhere. Unfortunately my posting privileges were somewhat lacking for the last 48hrs, so its had to wait til now Blush

Don't let the bastards grind you down Flowers

WankingMonkey · 26/01/2017 01:57

A lot of this non-binary stuff comes across as attention seeking to me...mainly as I fit the non-binary 'description', along with 'a-gender' and 'gender-queer' and I am pretty certain if I had been born 15 years later than I was I would have been on puberty blockers and such by the time I was 12.

BUT, I think what Jack has done here is very brave. She must have known the abuse she would get over this. The TERF accusations are bloody ridiculous too. I just hope the abuse is kept to a minimum really..noone should have to deal with the 'die in a fire' rubbish that gets thrown around.

Bambambini · 26/01/2017 06:49

It does seem like a load of childish, teenage angst nonsense. Wonder what these NB lot will make of it in 10 or 20 yrs time..

mxjackmonroe · 26/01/2017 08:39

^ I first started questioning my gender 23 years ago, so I think I'm fine.

amispartacus · 26/01/2017 09:07

jack

Do you think the testosterone has helped you be more comfortable in your skin?

mxjackmonroe · 26/01/2017 09:23

amispartacus

Briefly. I'm not on it any more. My heart isn't the greatest and it can act as a coagulant which can cause further complications.I weighed it all up and quit the T.

HelenDenver · 26/01/2017 09:25

Sorry about your heart issues, Jack.

Bibblewanda · 26/01/2017 09:32

Jack I have no idea if you're still reading and don't feel under any obligation to answer this question.

I'm a woman. Not a "cis woman", a woman. I know this because I was born with a vagina. That doesn't mean I particularly identify with anything traditionally defined as "female". I'm certainly not comfortable at all with gender expectations - I think gender is an oppressive social construct. However, I wouldn't describe myself as non binary, merely a woman who doesn't conform to gender norms.

What I don't understand about the trans movement is how it is possible to identify as the opposite sex without perpetuating those gender expectations which many of us find so oppressive. I have been called a TERF, a bigot and threatened with rape for expressing that viewpoint.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the above, if you have either the time or the inclination. If you have neither, that's fine.

Bambambini · 26/01/2017 09:56

mxjackmonroe. ^ I first started questioning my gender 23 years ago, so I think I'm fine.

Curious, what form did this take, I read about folk saying they knew they weren't "a boy or girl" since the ycan remember - what made you question what you call your gender - what do you man by it?

I just wonder if those who identify as NB think girls and women don't question the crap and stereotypes we are bombarded with and expected to adhere to (at least in some ways) from when we are tiny - that we just happily accept it all in our little cis happy bubble. I don't question my sex though - just what folk expect of me being female.

amispartacus · 26/01/2017 10:10

I think if more people - boys and girls, were allowed to just 'be', without other people worrying about what they wore, what they looked like, how they behaved etc, things would just be a lot easier.

That is a long way off though.

ScruffyTheJanitor · 26/01/2017 11:10

I'm male, it says so in my pants.
Am I a man though? I don't know? I don't know what a 'Man' is?

Strong? Protector? Good at mechanics? Loves the three Fs, fishing, fighting and fucking? Can drink 10 beers? So on and so on.

I am none of those things.

Stereotypical interests of 'woman'?
Clothes? Shoes? Bags? Perfumes? Etc.
I love all those things. I carry a woman's bag, wear women's perfume, often wear women's clothing and shoes, only those I feel I can 'get away with' as i fear if i wore what i truly liked that there would be issues with certain types of people.

So am I trans? Non binary? Or just a man that loves My Little Pony, Kylie, the colour pink, heels and dresses? Or maybe I'm just me?

This is why I am so confused and I don't understand any of it. Its also why ive struggled with it all for almost 40 years. It's also why I see the modern trend and fear that some people adopt it as its seen as 'trendy', as androgynous was in the 80s. Its also why i find it odd that the vast majority of NonBinary, andro etc are young females. Is it maybe because its easier for girls to get away with adopting the fashion and such of males where as a man wearing heels and make up is less acceptable in society? That they would stand out far more? That its simply not the style at the moment?

Its all too confusing and makes my brain hurt...
What well need.... Is more Ponies.... Yay!

tygr · 26/01/2017 11:52

I've never understood why wearing heels and makeup is feminine to be honest, Scruffy. I've always assumed that they were things designed by men to make women look more sexually alluring (flushed cheeks, wider eyes etc mimicking how the body reacts to arousal) and heels to make legs look longer etc. I just cannot see anything inherently feminine or female in those things at all.

That's what confuses me. 'Being pretty' as a pp said they liked to be and feeling feminine whilst doing so is surely subjective. Who has decided what pretty is? What's pretty about that way of looking?

To me, it is also confusing. I don't feel female particularly and I don't follow feminine stereotypes; in fact I recoil against most of them (hate dresses, heels makeup etc and have done since I was old enough to voice an opinion). I don't know what feeling like a woman is but I am one and am very happy to be so but express it in my own way. If I was a teenager now, I suspect I'd be identifying as a different gender through peer pressure (and be very confused).

tygr · 26/01/2017 11:55

Am mixing up threads, sorry, the PP and being pretty stuff was on the thread about the Transgender Kids documentary!

ChocChocPorridge · 26/01/2017 12:05

Is it maybe because its easier for girls to get away with adopting the fashion and such of males where as a man wearing heels and make up is less acceptable in society

Interesting the different angles people come at this. I think it's because girls have a lot to escape, and the idea of being treated like a boy, having that freedom, is extremely appealing.

ScruffyTheJanitor · 26/01/2017 12:22

tygr

Heels, according to most sources, were invented by men to aid horse riders to keep feet in stirrups. They were adopted by women as the women noticed the effect on their legs. As for make up, I'm notnsure the history on that tbh. I thought it went back to ancient times and it was women who used plant material on their skin to soften and make it more appealing? I don't know if men had much 'design input' other than evidently liking it?

ChocChoc
Girls have a lot to escape, undeniably so.
But I think its short sighted to believe men have 'freedom'. I've lived in my body since in was born. The rules, the pigeon holing, the 'normal' man etc is something in have never been and I have paid the price for it.

I like neither football, fishing, fighting, drinking, cars, womanising, golf. I'm not strong, I don't 'lift', I can't do DIY so on and so forth. There's an inherent expectation from other men that I must do these things, if I don't, I'm a 'weirdo', 'gay', 'not a man' etc. I've even been accused of giving 'normal' men a bad name because I stay home, clean, raise my DD etc. How many friends do you think i have? How many men do you think I've met that I've had anything in common with at all? Zero... And zero..

I think everyone has a sense of being trapped, there is no freedom for me in this world, there's no one there tonoat me oin my back and tell me not to worry. All there is is judgement, loneliness and a sense of being a thing that fits in no hole but the hole that's shaped like me.

Datun · 26/01/2017 12:25

'...easier for women to get away with adopting the fashion of males whereas a man wearing heels and make up is less acceptable in society?'

I think this is where transmen and trans-women part ways and where women and trans-women part ways.

Transmen would not need to identify as men in order to wear mens' clothing. Tons of women do it all the time. Wearing male clothing and identifying as a man are two different things.

According to most of the data I have seen, women identifying as men are generally attracted to other women. Identifying as a man is a form of protection from male attention. It's almost the opposite reason to why trans-women identify as women.

Women transition to avoid attention, men transition to get attention. I'm not saying it's an attention seeking tool in itself (although, for the more narcissistic it probably is), but that there is a perception that the attention you receive as a woman, is different to the attention you receive as a man. Which is exactly right. Something a lot of women get pissed off with and even more so when some men are hellbent on reinforcing it for their own gainz.

HeyRoly · 26/01/2017 12:28

I hope Jack carries on being happy. She's clearly very fragile, impulsive and doesn't have the best of mental health.

HeyRoly · 26/01/2017 12:30

Oh sorry, didn't realise that Jack was on this thread. Didn't mean to speak about her as if she wasn't here.

SomeDyke · 26/01/2017 13:02

"They were adopted by women as the women noticed the effect on their legs."

Really? If you were trying to walk and notice the effect on your legs at the same time, I'm sure you'd fall over.....................

Which is kind of the reason why men, at times, have worn daft high heels. They might have been practical on a horse, but on the ground, their impracticality was the reason the aristocracy wore them -- it showed that you didn't have to worry about being able to work and walk, you were too rich to worry about that! Except nowadays, women are expected to work like men, but do so whilst wearing the impractical footwear that men don't have to wear. That's the difference that is the real rub, not some innate link between womanhood and not being able to walk properly, or womanhood and caring about the shape of your calves.............

BeyondCanSeeTheEmperorsBellend · 26/01/2017 13:09

I'm not a sociologist - but surely the origin of make up is linked to tribal war paint?

Datun · 26/01/2017 13:21

BeyondCanSeeTheEmperorsBellend

Woad!

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that make up has been the historical provenance of women.

If having blue hair was a traditional aspect of womanhood, trans-women would all be bombing off down the salon. There's nothing innate about any of the superficial trappings.

If there is any difference from say an hormonal aspect, then the TRAs demonstrate masculinity all the damn time.

augustbody · 26/01/2017 13:34

It's because she was all over Mrs Gloss and the Goss before Christmas, and all the talk of lipstick, highlighters and acid toners got her all excited and made her realise she is actually a real woman after all innit.