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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Shannon Mathews

391 replies

user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 07:36

This was a shocking case. The child was without a doubt a victim in terrible circumstances. Her own Mother stashing her away under the bed of her partner...drugging her, lying to the public and to her friends about such an awful thing.

But.

Does anyone here think that the press and the public demonised her in a far worse fashion than criminals who do worse have been?

She was pilloried, called terrible names...really made into a sort of figurehead for everything "unwomanly" when there are plenty of men who commit arguably worse crimes and who get away without the public disgrace.

Yes she did a truly awful thing but the fact that she was

A: A woman
B: Working Class
C: Ignorant
D: Unattractive

All added up to ensure that she was the perfect example of a demon woman. Can anyone expand or tell me more about this sort of thing? Do you agree with me? Are there other cases which are similar?

OP posts:
LouisvilleLlama · 12/12/2016 20:29

Just to say I didn't want to get caught up on the DV stats it was just that as it was quoted as so high that alone would suggest that there was violence daily even if it had been 1000 it still lends to the fact that it probably happens daily, it was just the stat I remembered. My point was more the other half of my post

Gwenhwyfar · 12/12/2016 20:51

"Does it matter if awful criminals are demonised?"

Probably does if their crimes were awful, but not demonic.

HermioneWeasley · 12/12/2016 21:17

Well, ok but they're not actually being turned into demons are they?

Does it matter if we say some crimes are reprehensible and exclude you from society, I guess is the question.

But this is OP's thread so ignore my question.

whattheseithakasmean · 12/12/2016 21:17

How would you describe rape and murder? I don't think you can really over egg the awfulness of Myra Hindly or Rose Wests' crimes, Or those of Ian Brady or Fred West or Robert Black. They are all utterly heinous and I cannot comprehend why anyone would want to offer any kind of excuse for any of them or how any public revulsion can be too strong.

Karen Matthews is of a different order, but as it was her own child it is in many ways as repugnant a crime, but a different crime, as Shannon Matthews is still alive.

Murder is the worst crime as there is nothing to be done to make it OK for the victim, no hope for a better future. I think some people forgot that in their rush to show compassion for certain murderers.

Grindelwaldswand · 12/12/2016 21:21

How did the press Demonise a 9yr old child Hmm have i hit my head here or something ? If anything she was treated with respect and privacy and has lived her life in private with her new adopted parents since. She'd be in her late teens by now and is probably very happy and oblivious to any media coverage about her which is non these days.. let's keep it that way and let the poor girl live a happy life.

whattheseithakasmean · 12/12/2016 21:23

The thread is about demonising Karen Matthews, the mother of Shannon Matthews. No one is demonising the victim.

Grindelwaldswand · 12/12/2016 21:25

Yes but the OP doesn't actually mention Karen Mattews it says Shannon Matthews and jumps from how horrible it was to how people demonised her ? Confused ive requested a title change to Karen Matthews.

Original poster
user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 21:30

Grind yes I worded the title badly....but if you read the OP, it's obvious I wasn't talking about demonising a child. Hmm

OP posts:
Beebeeeight · 12/12/2016 23:06

Was Shannon ever adopted?

Given the Internet I'm sure she's very aware of any media coverage of her. (Inc pos this thread)

Original poster
user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 23:08

I'm not sure. The last I heard, she was under the care of a local authority. She may have been fostered or adopted...I just hope she's happy now.

I know that they're filming a dramatisation of the events with Sheridan Smith playing Karen Mathews next door neighbour....I also know that they had to move where they were filming as there had been protests.

It does seem very soon after the events to put it on tv and make entertainment out of it.

OP posts:
DeepanKrispanEven · 12/12/2016 23:39

With regards to Maxine Carr, I'm not even sure if that venom towards her was because she was a woman or simply that it was such a high profile awful case. I just don't know

I got the distinct feeling at the time that the tabloid press wanted to frame her as the new Hindley, and unfortunately to a great extent they succeeded.

I have a very hard time believing that she thought he was innocent, but even if she did....a false alibi is false....it was not up to her to decide he wouldn't have done it and she should have given the police the facts. That said, the police should not have trusted her at all.

Like many women before and after her, she believed the man she loved. Goodness knows, we see enough of that on relationship boards here. In the previous case where she provided an alibi for Huntley, the victim said that Huntley was not the person who attacked her and it appears to be the case that the alibi was genuine. Once she realised what Huntley had done she gave evidence that was very material in convicting him.

Yes, what she did was absolutely wrong. She was convicted and sentenced accordingly and has served her sentence. The point is that she has suffered far more than her prison sentence - she had to move to a new identity and lives in daily fear of exposure and lynch mobs. That is massively disproportionate to her crime.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/12/2016 00:49

I know that they're filming a dramatisation of the events with Sheridan Smith playing Karen Mathews next door neighbour....I also know that they had to move where they were filming as there had been protests

I hope this never sees the light of day.

Original poster
user1477282676 · 13/12/2016 01:52

Lass Oh I'm certain it will be aired. It's got too many big names attached to it. The agreement has been made with the people who were involved and permission sought from Shannon...

OP posts:
Twogoats · 13/12/2016 03:43

Oh wow, that TV show idea is in very poor taste.

Original poster
user1477282676 · 13/12/2016 04:20

Goats well this happens with most big crimes doesn't it? They make a dramatisation out of it. However this is rather too soon in my opinion.

OP posts:
sashh · 13/12/2016 05:36

I'm not sympathising with the actions of Hindley, all I'm saying is she was not as complicit as Brady. What she did was abhorrent, what he did was much worse. Though, she obviously is just as bad as him eh?

WTF?

Other than the recording of a little girl no one except Brady and Hindley knows (knew) what happened.

Hindley always claimed she turned a blind eye, was not present at the murder/had some other excuse but then the police found the recording - and she still denied she took an active part.

She claimed she was 'looking out the window' or 'running a bath'.

She was photographed by Brady at the graves.

I think part of the reason why we know these names is that it was a woman, until then children were warned about 'strange men' but suddenly a woman was just as bad.

Miffer · 13/12/2016 07:28

It's really bizarre that there is a debate about who was worse. I knew little about this but did some half arsed research out of interest. Brady is apparently severely mentally ill I am more inclined to accept that as a mitigating factor than "I was looking out the window".

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 13/12/2016 08:18

Interesting how little time it took for the opposite phenomenon to the one the OP is complaining about to rear it's head.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 13/12/2016 08:19

or "its head" even.

MrsJayy · 13/12/2016 09:34

A tv programme really? Not sure if it is too soon or not ? Programmes have been made about all sorts I suppose this is no different

TheMagicFarawaySleeps · 13/12/2016 09:59

For what it's worth, I think that for the same crime, women are more vilified initially, with the whole "how could she do that, she's a woman, must have maternal instincts, blah blah".

BUT, conversely, because of this, it seems that women's mental states at the time of their crimes seems to be questioned more, due to the assumption that a mentally well woman wouldn't commit crimes against children. Largely due to the belief in the inherent maternal nature of women.

Mitigating mental health factors may result therefore in a shorter sentance.

A man committing the same crime, is often almost written off as evil straight away. So their sentance is generally likely to be longer.

I do think, though, that where women commit terrible crimes e.g. Myra Hindley, we do ourselves no favours in trying to frame this in FWR terms. Surely if women are equal to men, they also have to be capable of utter evil.

We cannot be taken seriously if we try to be apologists for women undertaking heinous crimes, because doing so reinforces the idea that women are inherently "different" to men I.e. The opposite of FWR thinking.

I do find some women's reluctance to accept evil in other women, to be a real challenge to the FWR credibility.

HalfShellHero · 13/12/2016 10:02

I didn't know about the drama ...im glad its the neighbour Sheridan smith is playing not KM ...that would be bad casting...i dont know if its too soon tbh , its been a few years hasnt it? Id watch it tbh ...ive always found the case interesting..

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/12/2016 10:09

*I do think, though, that where women commit terrible crimes e.g. Myra Hindley, we do ourselves no favours in trying to frame this in FWR terms. Surely if women are equal to men, they also have to be capable of utter evil.

We cannot be taken seriously if we try to be apologists for women undertaking heinous crimes, because doing so reinforces the idea that women are inherently "different" to men I.e. The opposite of FWR thinking.*

Agree.

HalfShellHero · 13/12/2016 11:03

Agree aswell.

whattheseithakasmean · 13/12/2016 13:08

Good post theMagicFaraway. I think when you find yourself trying to argue a child murderer was not as bad as they could be, it is time to raise your head from the keyboard and really think about what you are defending, and why.