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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shannon Mathews

391 replies

user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 07:36

This was a shocking case. The child was without a doubt a victim in terrible circumstances. Her own Mother stashing her away under the bed of her partner...drugging her, lying to the public and to her friends about such an awful thing.

But.

Does anyone here think that the press and the public demonised her in a far worse fashion than criminals who do worse have been?

She was pilloried, called terrible names...really made into a sort of figurehead for everything "unwomanly" when there are plenty of men who commit arguably worse crimes and who get away without the public disgrace.

Yes she did a truly awful thing but the fact that she was

A: A woman
B: Working Class
C: Ignorant
D: Unattractive

All added up to ensure that she was the perfect example of a demon woman. Can anyone expand or tell me more about this sort of thing? Do you agree with me? Are there other cases which are similar?

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/12/2016 13:36

Not enough to give back their OAP pension I bet

How charming.

You do know that in the UK it is now called the "State Retirement Pension" ?

And that unless someone has genuinely never worked in their lives they have contributed to it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/12/2016 14:10

Thinking about it Gwen I can think of scenarios where "elderly" might reasonably be used.

Racehorses, pedigree breeding stock, police dogs, guide and companion animals, racing greyhounds and the like. These working animals may well still be beautiful and lovely but after a certain age they will be past their best for the purposes they were intended for.

JoeJoe80 · 24/12/2016 14:55

I used the paedophile not in its strict clinical definition, but to denote someone who derives pleasure from sexually abusing children. That doesn't mean they are defined by that pathological orientation to the extent that they are exclusively attracted to children. It just means that among other things they get off on molesting children - with all the sadism that implies. Jimmy Saville molested adult women too.

Gwen, I cannot help but feel that you are very surreptitiously attempting to minimise the responsibility of these women, or to suggest they were not paedophiles (as I define them above).

If someone you meet online asks you to carry out and film the sexual abuse of children and send him the videos and you even for a second contemplate doing so, you are either a paedophile (as I define them) - or you are so mentally disturbed or impaired that you should not stand trial.

If this man had met other men online and solicited them to do the same, would you still be suggesting they might not be 'paedophiles'?

0nline · 24/12/2016 16:35

What do you think elderly actually means?

From a purely prescriptive perspective, it means old. Which is fine and dandy when using the adjective in a wholly objective manner. Gets used a lot in medical/scientific literature in that fashion.

From a descriptive linguistics perspective it functions to flesh out a picture.

What the fleshing out intends to convey depends on the user and is coloured by factors like their culture, perspective and motivation. It is not necessarily a neutral, objective observation.

The intent behind its inclusion is not always devoid of bias, or without agenda. "An elderly grandmother" was used relentlessly by the alt-right to undermine the perception that Hillary was strong enough and well enough to take on a presidential role.

Going back to the example on this thread, "An elderly woman, 74" might reflect that a reporter had been informed (but as yet not allowed to report) that the missing woman was suffering from frailties we associate with advanced years.

Depending on the circs of how she went overboard, it might be setting up an image to underline how defenceless she was, if she was pushed for example. Or prepping an intended story line to explain a suicide. Or creating a hypothetical basis for an accident. Or to underline just how mysterious her going overboard was, cos her being able to climb over barriers like a spritely mountain goat was a long shot.

On the other hand, it might just reflect that the reporter is a fairly young snotbag, who thinks everybody over 50 is pretty much past it, and is subconsciously thinking "let's not get too excited about this particular case cos she had one and half feet in the grave already".

It is also possible there was a minimum word count for the report. There was little info to be had, so it functioned as padding and "old" felt too blunt.

Words mean not just what they mean in a purely prescriptive sense. How we use them, why we use them, brings layer upon layer of communication on top.

And it is bloody fascinating.

Gwenhwyfar · 30/12/2016 21:02

"If someone you meet online asks you to carry out and film the sexual abuse of children and send him the videos and you even for a second contemplate doing so, you are either a paedophile (as I define them) - or you are so mentally disturbed or impaired that you should not stand trial. "

Or I could just be a bad person, someone without morals.

"feel that you are very surreptitiously attempting to minimise the responsibility of these women, or to suggest they were not paedophiles (as I define them above). "

Well, yes I did suggest that they may not be paedophiles (people sexually attracted only to children), but that in itself doesn't minimise what they've done. You could argue that it makes it worse in a way. I accept that the police have said they believe Vanessa George was a paedophile who didn't act on it until she met others, but there are people who disagree and there is no evidence either way.

Gwenhwyfar · 30/12/2016 21:06

"What do you think elderly actually means?

From a purely prescriptive perspective, it means old."

Well, good job we agree on one thing. To me it's a more polite way to say old, it doesn't imply frail. The woman presumably didn't work any more so her age was used to describe her rather than a job or a family status. Whatever words the journalist chose to use could have been criticised. If he/she'd used her former job, why was she being defined by that, if he/she'd used her reproductive status (grandmother etc.) there would have been criticism for that.

Gwenhwyfar · 30/12/2016 21:08

"
You do know that in the UK it is now called the "State Retirement Pension" ? "

No, I didn't know that. Us plebs still call it the old age pension. Even though they've contributed to it, reaching a certain age is still part of the entitlement.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 30/12/2016 21:45

Us plebs still call it the old age pension

It has nothing to do with being a pleb. It's being aware of language and changes in the acceptability of langusge.

Do you use outdated homophobic , diasblist and racist terms?

Gwenhwyfar · 31/12/2016 00:15

"
Do you use outdated homophobic , diasblist and racist terms?"

Depends. I don't claim to be up-to-date on all the 'fashionable PC' terms, but that doesn't make me homophobic, disablist or racist, or even ageist, which is the only one relevant to the term OAP. OAP is not derogatory in any case.
But if we're not allowed to say old or elderly, what are we supposed to call someone who's neither young nor middle aged?

0nline · 31/12/2016 08:05

To me it's a more polite way to say old, it doesn't imply frail

A couple of days of using corpora would demonstrate both the use you have defined and use where it most certainly is used to imply, or convey frailty.

I do actually agree with you that in the case brought forward on this thread there were a plethora of reasons why elderly was used, and only some of them would be deliberatly, or sub consciously intended to demean, or diminish. Based on the text provided it is impossible to determine what motivated the use.

I also agree with you that a prescriptive approach should not be the baby in the bath water we hurl out the window on the basis that in some contexts, when used by some people, words can be used to hurt, demean and diminish.

Gwenhwyfar · 31/12/2016 10:09

"It has nothing to do with being a pleb. It's being aware of language and changes in the acceptability of langusge."

It does have to do with being an ordinary person and not someone who deals with official jargon. I hadn't heard that the old age pension is now called something else because the new term hasn't filtered down to my 'pleb' level i.e. it's not used on the streets by ordinary people.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/12/2016 11:06

I have not heard anyone call it anything other than the State Pension or Retirement Pension or just Pension in years, including people who claim it. I don't work in any sector related to pensions or State benefits.

Elderly is a word which needs to be used carefully if there is an objective need for it. The example which gave rise to this discussion was "an elderly 74 year old ".

Elderly in that sense is redundant. You seem fixated on the need to distinguish between young and old.

In most circumstances the numerical age will suffice; one can marry at 16, drive at 17, drink at 18, get a bus pass at 60, claim State Pension at 65, 66 or other relevant age, free TV licence at 75. None of these rights and benefits needs to be be qualified by a descriptor.

To dismiss the use of "State Retirement Pension" as a "fashionable PC term" is ridiculous.

BeyondIBringYouGoodTidings · 31/12/2016 11:41

I'd class "elderly 74 year old woman" as similar to "young 17 year old mum"
It's added to denigrate, while looking "innocently" descriptive.

On the random offshoot pension discussion, I have only heard it called "pension" for a good while. However I have to explain ESA as incapacity benefit nearly every time it comes up in conversation, so I can believe that some people take a while to catch up with stuff that doesn't concern them!

Gwenhwyfar · 31/12/2016 13:03

"To dismiss the use of "State Retirement Pension" as a "fashionable PC term" is ridiculous."

I think you have to accept that it hasn't filtered down to the masses yet. I hadn't heard it and I don't live in a cave. I listen to and read the news and discuss social and political issues with people, but still though it was called old age pension. I can't be the only one.

Gwenhwyfar · 31/12/2016 13:04

"You seem fixated on the need to distinguish between young and old."

Not fixated at all, but also not fixated with not mentioning your or old, which some of you seem to be.

Gwenhwyfar · 31/12/2016 13:32

"similar to "young 17 year old mum"
It's added to denigrate, while looking "innocently" descriptive."

Without seeing the whole article I couldn't tell if young 17 year old was used to denigrate. It might just as easily be used to emphasise youth and to evoke sympathy.

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