Shannon Mathews

[user1477282676]

This was a shocking case. The child was without a doubt a victim in terrible circumstances. Her own Mother stashing her away under the bed of her partner...drugging her, lying to the public and to her friends about such an awful thing.

But.

Does anyone here think that the press and the public demonised her in a far worse fashion than criminals who do worse have been?

She was pilloried, called terrible names...really made into a sort of figurehead for everything "unwomanly" when there are plenty of men who commit arguably worse crimes and who get away without the public disgrace.

Yes she did a truly awful thing but the fact that she was

A: A woman
B: Working Class
C: Ignorant
D: Unattractive

All added up to ensure that she was the perfect example of a demon woman. Can anyone expand or tell me more about this sort of thing? Do you agree with me? Are there other cases which are similar?

In many ways I think Hindley was worse because she campaigned so hard to be freed and kept raising he profile for her own ends. Brady accepted he would die in prison but Hindley wanted to get out and would use any means at her disposal to do so. There's no sliding scale here, Hindley is as bad a second it gets.

Elendon - no I don't expect it from men but I am familiar with it in the context of the mental disorder that Brady has. Every psychiatric comment released to the press is clear that Brady has a severe and dangerous personality disorder and is completely devoid of empathy. His writings made clear he literally saw no difference between killing a human or an insect. It felt the same to him and was the same morally.

Hindley didn't have that psychopathology so yes, I find her more difficult to understand than him. Not because she was a woman but because she was capable of imagining how scared, horrified, ashamed and panicked their victims would have been as they were abused and murdered. And she still did it.

And Brady is a sadistic psychopath but he's never claimed to be anything else or tried to be released. Myra reinvented herself as a Religious victim in order to try and get released.

Myra Hindley actively participated in the murder of those children and was every bit as guilty as Brady - she wasn't just turning a blind eye. She deserved to be villified by the press.

Karen Matthews sticks in everyone's mind because she received so much press attention before she was rumbled. I can remember her convincingly crying at the press meeting begging for Shannon to come home. Karen was lazy, selfish a neglectful mother and just a bit thick. She was, however, a great actor.

I do, however, feel sorry for Maxine Carr. She wasn't in Soham at the time and genuinely though Ian Huntley was innocent. She has served a prison sentence, changed her identity and the press (and public) should just leave her alone.

What point are you trying to make re Christie?

You stated Brady's partner in crime would not have been vilified if he were a gay man.
This is nonsensical given the treatment of gay men if ever involved in crime. And that's setting aside the fact Christie did not have a gay male partner.

So far as Ethel Christie she was one of his victims - what is your point there?

I do, however, feel sorry for Maxine Carr. She wasn't in Soham at the time and genuinely though Ian Huntley was innocent. She has served a prison sentence, changed her identity and the press (and public) should just leave her alone.

As does everyone on this thread who has commented on her. I felt sorry for her at the time.

I feel sorry for Maxine Carr as well.
her face pops up alongside murderers on the internet.
All she did was provide a false alibi for someone that she believed to be innocent. Misjudged, foolish but not deserving of being put alongside eg Hindley.
(a whole other topic I know but there are those who think that Huntley might have been framed)

Brady hates Ashworth prison and always wanted out, he wanted to go to a normal prison.

www.scotsman.com/news/uk/moors-murderer-ian-brady-insists-he-is-sane-1-2974891

He described his murderous actions as recreational killings, and that he was 'method acting'.

Regarding Hindley:

www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/16/ukcrime.sarahhall

Peter Timms, the Methodist minister who counselled her in prison, said her treatment was a "scar on the judicial system".

"I have supported her only because I think she had been treated grossly unfairly in comparison to other life sentence prisoners," he told Sky News. "The reason she wasn't released wasn't because she was dangerous but people were afraid of the press.

"Her part in the business has always been one of complete remorse and complete regret. She's always done everything she can to help the police."

He wanted to go to prison. She wanted to be released into the community with a new identity so she could meet up with one of her lovers under lifelong protection from the Police and government.

And we know she had lots of supporters. That's the point in how she WAS treated differently because she was a woman. Can anyone name me any male gay or straight murderers of children that recorded it have MPs and Religious leaders campaigning for their release?. Nah.

And she was so manipulative and exploitative that she ditched her supporters when she felt they were no longer useful for her case. Like she did to Lord Longford after his years of support for her.

And every interview I've read of Police Officers that actually interviewed her said she gave as little information as she could get away with.

So because she was sorry she lured children into got her brother in law to help lift a boy buried others its ok she isnt a monster. the only time she helped police is when she wanted an appeal. There is still children missing she knew where they were yet chose to lead police on a wild goose chase. The only person myra hindly was sorry for was myra hindley Imo

Her car*

I may be mistaken but aren't women generally found guilty less and sentences more leniently? You also have people campaigning saying prison isn't suitable for women etc.

I don't think women get it worse in the media, I think it's more rare for women to be put into the media for their crimes in general, we know most violent crimes are done by men but women also daily do violent crimes just by the sheer number but there isn't a spotlight on them. I think it has to be a lot more severe for women to be in the media eye, and in some crimes women get off lightly from the public such as sexual offences with teens or younger children than men get.

Although I don't think that discussing this from a equality issue is in itself a good idea. These people have done disgustingly evil things and I don't think campaigning for any to be treated better is a good idea.

Ethel Christie was imo a victim I do not believe myra hindley was a victim of Ian Brady I think she did these things of her own will saying Ian Brady was worse does not make her crimes any less

Re Ethel Christie. She knew what he was doing. That much is obvious. Yet she returned to her abuser. She never once went to the police with her suspicions. Had she lived, my point is, she would have been treated just like Christie in the end, she would have been seen as much a murderer as he was. But, she tried to stop him, and this cost her her life.

Re Hindley, if she was a he, he would have been seen as a lesser person in the crime, though still his actions would have been deplorable. Hindley's crime was to be a woman. Because women shouldn't murder in such a way as men.

The only conclusion to reach from this discussion is that men are the one's who murder, and if women are accomplices, they are equally as bad. No matter how small a part they play.

Plus Hindley is seen as Brady's partner. He has always said she was a means to an end. I suppose a two year partnership is seen as a long term relationship. It has always been suggested that Hindley was under the total control of Brady, but this could be viewed as paternalistic I suppose. David Smith helped clean up the last of the victims. Perhaps he was under some sort of spell, or just an innocent 17 year old with previous convictions.

Yes; very true - like the Connelly ,Matthews and Hindley apologists on here.

No-one on here is an "apologist" for those three, and it's disturbing that people are seeking to categorise the discussion in those terms. You can comment on the fact that they have been demonised more than men are for comparable crimes without in any way condoning or sympathising with their crimes, you know.

And I don't see how anyone can suggest that Brady has some sort of moral high ground just because he didn't campaign for release. The man's a psychopath who has tried to manipulate public opinion by playing games around the whereabouts of his victims, mainly because he wanted to get back at Hindley for daring to escape from his control. In his way he does his best to twist the knife in his victims' families' wounds by constantly trying to get publicity, whether it's by way of claims to have murdered five more people whom he refuses to name, his supposed hunger strike, his attempted judicial review action, or his recent pronouncements on Brexit.

Thats not quite true, Louisa,
www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php
Women tend to be imprisoned for first time offences - men tend not to be.
Theft and handling is the most common offence for women in prison thus their sentences are shorter.
women also daily do violent crimes just by the sheer number I don't know what this means.

Sorry, Louiseville.

He was the one who viciously murdered and she was the one who turned a blind eye. Murdering someone is entirely different to turning a blind eye

Aside from being untrue, given her active participation in procuring the victims,what would you call that other than an excuse for Hindley's behaviour.

I'm not excusing HIndley's behaviour. Do you think Lass, that Hindley raped and murdered the victims?

She DID help murder the victims!

'Turning a blind eye' which you said twice totally minimises her role.
You must know that.

I think you excused her behaviour when you claimed she simply "turned a blind eye", I mean if you're coming at it from that perspective then I really don't think a sensible conversation can be had.

With regards to Maxine Carr, I'm not even sure if that venom towards her was because she was a woman or simply that it was such a high profile awful case. I just don't know.

I'm sure there is an important debate to be had about how female criminals are treated in the press but the examples so far are so extreme I don't think they can be used.

Once you make a blunder by claiming that Myra Hindley "turned a blind eye", you can can either accept it was a foolish thing to write or look really peculiar trying to defend it.

The latter makes for rather unpleasant reading.

Do you think Lass, that Hindley raped and murdered the victims?

She does not have a penis so technically she could not have raped them. She was actively involved in the abductions and torture and facilitated his rape of the victims. As to which one of them dealt the final blow- I don't really care given her active participation.

I agree with sushisack - your "turning a blind eye" comment renders sensible discussion impossible. Your last question is further minimisation - basically oh she couldn't have raped them- she's a woman.

I apologise for the turning a blind eye comment, that was thoughtless, though she did not actually murder them. If not Hindley, then what other woman? Everything else stands. Crikey, I feel like I'm on the stand now for simply saying that she wasn't the devil that Brady slept with (if they actually did sleep together).

It has never been proven that John Christie killed the baby Geraldine.

Unfortunately it is because of lazy, entitled parasites like Karen Matthews that so many people get tarred with the 'benefits class' brush.

Really? I thought it was because of people using terms like "benefits class".