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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Shannon Mathews

391 replies

user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 07:36

This was a shocking case. The child was without a doubt a victim in terrible circumstances. Her own Mother stashing her away under the bed of her partner...drugging her, lying to the public and to her friends about such an awful thing.

But.

Does anyone here think that the press and the public demonised her in a far worse fashion than criminals who do worse have been?

She was pilloried, called terrible names...really made into a sort of figurehead for everything "unwomanly" when there are plenty of men who commit arguably worse crimes and who get away without the public disgrace.

Yes she did a truly awful thing but the fact that she was

A: A woman
B: Working Class
C: Ignorant
D: Unattractive

All added up to ensure that she was the perfect example of a demon woman. Can anyone expand or tell me more about this sort of thing? Do you agree with me? Are there other cases which are similar?

OP posts:

Gwenhwyfar · 15/12/2016 18:42

"Hindley most likely wouldn't have killed without Brady, whereas he probably would have done with a different partner.That doesn't mean that she was manipulated by him though, simply that the darker perverted side of her personality was complemented and enhanced by his personality. "

Yes, but I think many people have this dark side. I really don't get the impression she's as bad as Brady.

frenchielala · 15/12/2016 18:45

I don't know if this has been said already but there is a whole chapter in Owen Jones book Chavs on this case and how the media treated it with a focus on the Medellin McCann case too. Worth a read.

Alfieisnoisy · 15/12/2016 18:54

I actually feel some pity these days for Karen Matthews. Through her own actions she has lost everything...and yes as an adult she has to take full responsibility for that.
These days though she lives on benefits because nobody will employ her. Benefits for a single person with no dependents are appalling small sums. She won't have much left by the time her rent is paid (am assuming she is on Universal Credit so has to pay her rent out of the benefits she gets).

What a miserable life, and she brought it all on herself.

Men walk away from children all the time with no care about what happens to them. Mothers who are left holding the baby are judged much more harshly for their actions because we don't expect that kind of behaviour from them.

So I feel some pity for her. But I feel far more pity for Shannon and her siblings.
Whether Karen fully appreciates the enormity of her actions it's difficult to know, I suspect not.

She has no children (her children might or might not want contact when they are older). Her family have disowned her.

She has nobody and nothing in her life....and it's all her own fault.

I gather she has joined a church group and they might be the only people who can approach her in a non judgemental way.

Twogoats · 15/12/2016 19:03

She was always on benefits though!

My sympathy is with her poor kids, and the people at her church group!

HermioneWeasley · 15/12/2016 19:34

She was always on benefits

And plenty of women are left "holding the baby" , but don't fake their kidnap, drug them and leave them with sex offenders.

Stop defending the indefensible

noeffingidea · 15/12/2016 19:43

Gwen don't you?
I believe Brady was 100% psychopath, whereas Hindley wasn't. She probably could have kept that side in check with a different partner. However, her actions (in the murder cases) were equally as bad as his. Both were equally responsible. Both were equally bad in that instant, though perhaps not in the years leading up to it.
I'm not a psychologist or criminologist though. Those are just my impressions, based partly on an interview of one of the police officers on the case.
I think there is a tendency to see a woman in a muderous couple as being manipulated or coerced into being an accessory , and I don't believe that is true in this case, or the Wests.
As for Karen Matthews, I'm not sure what I think about her. I suspect sheer stupidity underlay her actions. What I can't overlook is the years of neglect, and bringing a paedophile into her children's home.
It's about time shitty parents (of both sexes) are called out and we stop making excuses for selfish neglectful parenting. Sadly there are probably many children in Shannon's situation (prior to the 'kidnapping').

TeiTetua · 15/12/2016 19:50

I think that since we got rid of the death penalty for just about any crime, it's become necessary for society to find a place for people who've committed crimes. The law dealt with Karen Matthews, she went to prison and now she's out again. What's supposed to happen to her now, if everyone makes her an outcast? We might as well have strung her up in the first place. I'm not religious, but I think the Christians have a good idea in saying that there's no unforgivable sin or unforgivable sinner.

Twogoats · 15/12/2016 20:00

She should be in jail until she hits menopause. I don't think she should have anymore kids.

Beebeeeight · 15/12/2016 21:50

The kidnapping aside there are plenty of 'bad' mothers like katen Mathews.

Thousands of kids suffer neglect.

Lots of mums get into relationships with sex offenders.

Prior to her notoriety she wasn't very exceptional.

DeepanKrispanEven · 16/12/2016 01:09

Karen Matthews wouldn't have been hanged even when we had the death penalty, as she didn't commit murder.

Gwenhwyfar · 16/12/2016 08:48

"I don't know if this has been said already but there is a whole chapter in Owen Jones book Chavs on this case and how the media treated it with a focus on the Medellin McCann case too. Worth a read."

I read it, but a lot of those arguments were being made before we knew Karen Matthews was guilty. When we found out she'd staged the whole thing, the whole class discrimination angle fell. And to be fair, the McCanns have argued that they're vilified partly because they're a well off, good looking couple.

TeiTetua · 16/12/2016 20:22

When I said "the death penalty for just about any crime", that was a clumsy way of referring to the time say 200 years ago when there was a death penalty, at least in theory, for a great many crimes, some not involving violence at all. Certainly not just murder.

So now we don't do that any more, but that gives us the result that there are people who've committed crimes that we find revolting, but who serve their time in prison and then are out in the world again. I think if that's the way society operates, it's our duty to let an ex-prisoner have some semblance of a decent life. I'll let the legal system punish people, and try not to provide additional suffering myself.

Leila78 · 16/12/2016 22:31

The thing is someone can be an an absolute horror of a human being and still face unjust sexism/racism. I don't know in this case though. We'd only know for sure if a man committed the exact same crime. As it is, we have no basis for comparison.

As for Hindley: she was fully accountable for what she did. She and Brady got sexual kicks from murdering children and they should both rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. Nothing gets my goat more than the (actually deeply sexist) 'oh she was manipulated, she couldn't help it' narrative. It only perpetuates the dehumanisation of women.

Gwenhwyfar · 17/12/2016 09:39

"(actually deeply sexist) 'oh she was manipulated"

People aren't saying she was manipulated because we're sexist, it's because of our understanding of what happened. I'm not an expert in it so I don't want to discuss the case in any detail, but my impression is that Brady was leading and she was following.

DeepanKrispanEven · 17/12/2016 09:45

I don't think anyone suggests that Hindley couldn't help it: obviously she could. The issue is that she did things that she almost certainly would not have contemplated if she'd never met Brady. And there are plenty of people, both male and female, who get manipulated in that way.

Alfieisnoisy · 17/12/2016 10:17

Hermoine, I wasn't aware that I HAD "defended the indefensible". I said repeatedly in my post that Karen Matthews brought it all on herself. All I said was that I felt some pity for her living a miserable life...but that she had brought it all on herself by her own actions. I did not ONCE suggest that her actions could or should be defended. Actions have consequences as she has found out. My bulk of my sympathy belongs entirely and appropriately with her poor children.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/12/2016 10:26

The issue is that she did things that she almost certainly would not have contemplated if she'd never met Brady

You have no way of knowing that. Had either of them offended before they met each other?

but my impression is that Brady was leading and she was following

That is sexist and infantilising. As far as I'm concerned each was as bad as the other.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 17/12/2016 10:43

The issue is that she did things that she almost certainly would not have contemplated if she'd never met

Why on earth would you say this ? She wouldn't contemplate them because she's a woman ? Do you need a man brain to be proper evil ?

Gwenhwyfar · 17/12/2016 11:55

"Had either of them offended before they met each other? "

Yes, Brady was an experienced criminal.

Gwenhwyfar · 17/12/2016 11:56

" She wouldn't contemplate them because she's a woman ? Do you need a man brain to be proper evil ?"

No, people aren't saying it because she was a woman, but because of our understanding of who was leading and who was following. Lass disagrees, but offers no reason why.

DeepanKrispanEven · 17/12/2016 12:11

You have no way of knowing that. Had either of them offended before they met each other?

Which is why I said "almost certainly". Hindley had not offended before she met Brady. Brady had a number of previous convictions, and a history of conduct such as torturing animals.

girlwiththeflaxenhair, what an extraordinary assumption to make from my wording. Please don't put words into my mouth. I said that Hindley probably wouldn't have contemplated committing several horrible murders had she not met Brady for the same reasons as, for instance, I would say that David Smith had not contemplated it before Brady tried unsuccessfully to drag him in, and for the same reason that I would say that 99.9% of the population - male or female - would not contemplate it.

Just for the record, it wasn't me who made the leading/following comment and yes, I agree that once they even started to formulate the intention to commit murder, each was as bad as the other.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 17/12/2016 13:16

You used the word contemplated. So not just that she hadn't done it but that's she would never even have thought about it. Thats quite an assumption to make about a thoroughly evil woman. Extraordinary you might say.

Gwenhwyfar · 17/12/2016 13:19

"Extraordinary you might say."

Not extraordinary as this has been common thinking for decades - that Hindley was evil to have participated, but that she wouldn't of herself have come up with the idea. There is nothing in her past to suggest that she would have (she fought with local kids and had a bad temper, but seemed 'normal' otherwise) whereas Brady showed signs of sadism early on. There's also plenty of evidence that she was submissive to him and desperate to please him.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/12/2016 13:24

Why on earth would you say this ? She wouldn't contemplate them because she's a woman ? Do you need a man brain to be proper evil ?

Apparently yes. Having a female brain means you are just "submissive and desperate to please"

Gwenhwyfar · 17/12/2016 13:31

"Having a female brain means you are just "submissive and desperate to please""

What is the matter with you??? I've said many times that we're not talking about FEMALES, but about a particular female!!!

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