Transmen committing 'gender fraud' / in women's spaces - thoughts?

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

This idea for a topic was spurred by a previous thread in which I wanted to bring up the issue of transmen committing crimes against women but didn't because the thread had undergone several massive derailments anyway.

Basically, the gist of it is that I'm curious re what people think re transmen (FtMs) who are attracted to women tricking girls / women into sex. There have been a few cases of this all successfully prosecuted - R v Gemma Barker [2012], R v Chris Wilson [2013], R v Justine McNally [2013], R v Gayle Newland [2015] and R v Kyran Lee (Mason) [2015]. This is generally known as rape by deception or 'gender fraud'. The FtM's used strap-ons.

I'm curious partly because there has been an increase in the number of girls identifying as 'trans', suggesting that ethical and legal issues re this group may come to the forefront in coming years, and partly because when learning about the trans phenomenon I came across a number of FtM sites where the women concerned were blatantly sexist, misogynist, considering of women as lesser beings and saying that they understood the world from a man's POV.

A bigger question given the above is whether FtMs should be welcome in women's spaces.

Some links, for those who are interested.

www.lawbot.info/blog/2016/11/8/criminal-injustice-3-heteronormativity-and-transgender
www.plymouthlawreview.org/vol8/childs%20trans%20article.pdf
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/12/gayle-newland-sentenced-eight-years-prison-duping-friend-having-sex

If they really pass and don't look like a man in a bad wig and ill fitting frock - then they will be able to use women's loos. I have less an issue with that as I'd probably never be aware anyway.

Trans who pass as their desired gender should use the disabled loo until such time (which hopefully never comes) that there are so many of them that creating a third space for them is warranted.

Sod the disabled people then!
(Many of which are also women).

Knowing several FtM transmen and this is obviously anecdotal but it's still my experience - they report a huge increase in sexual desire and aggression (not always sexual aggression, but I've heard that too) when on testosterone treatment.

There is one transman I know who is 6ft, built like a brick shit house and heavily tattooed and facially pierced. He is also one of the hairiest people I've ever seen. I see people (male and female) cross the street to avoid him so there is no way any woman would be happy with him in women's spaces despite the fact he has a vagina.

I have less an issue with that as I'd probably never be aware anyway

Surely passing has nothing to do with the threat they pose though? They can pass all they want but still be a risk to women?

The research that identified two main types of transwomen found that the gay men who transitioned were realistic, and would only commit to transition if they felt confident that men would find them attractive as women, and that women would accept them.

Men with AGP often didn't much care if they passed. They were turned on by wearing certain garments, by adopting stereotypical make up and mannerisms but didn't feel the need to "blend in" among the female population. This is where the huge blokes in dodgy wigs and blue eye shadow come in.

The triggers for AGP arousal seem to be very varied. Some get turned on by creating consternation in women who become aware of their presence.

So if a transwoman passes so well that no one notices her presence the chances are that she doesn't present a risk anyway iyswim.

So if a transwoman passes so well that no one notices her presence the chances are that she doesn't present a risk anyway iyswim

I would have thought that being socialised as a male would mean that the risk is the same? Are you suggesting that gay men are socialised differently so they present less of a risk? I thought all men would be socialised the same?

And how do you leglisate to prevent such a risk?

Legislation is through gender recognition certificates, rather than self identification. Being given a GRC was supposed to depend on surgery, psychological evaluation and presentation.

As opposed to what is being pushed for, which is self identification.

Except there's nothing in a GRC that says you can't have autogynephilia.

prawn may correct me here, because she knows more than I do, but from what I have read, having surgery is sometimes an option for those with AGP.

And in terms of threat, obviously you will have predators who represent a threat (whether trans or pretending to be) but the threat from those with AGP is also (or even mainly) to do with the fact that their sexual arousal is based on them having access to women's spaces, which enhances the fetish.

I don't want men in women's spaces regardless of how they identify. However, if we can't keep them out, which I fear may become the case, I am nowhere near as worried about gay men as I am about heterosexual fetishists. I can't remember ever knowing a woman who has been attacked by a gay man.

Datun, I mean that the mode through which such a risk would be prevented would be the GRC.

Obviously if psychologists are not able to discuss the research around that risk due to political pressure, no risk prevention can take place.

I agree. And it's in the interests of the autogynephile to deceive psychologists. There are tips and tricks all over the net on how to do it.

I find it incredibly shocking how this aspect of the trans ideology has been allowed to get brushed under the carpet.

Yes, transmen should be allowed into women's spaces, seeing as they have a vagina. These sorts of crimes are somewhat of a rarity and girls will always be more at risk of being raped by a man than a woman (Biological not trans definitions).

Yup. Though I would be in favour of a unisex option (aswell as male and female) also.

You cannot always tell if someone is a transwoman. That will also become more difficult in years to come because of hormone blockers. But I agree that older men who transition are easy to spot.

See this is where I differ from a lot of gender critical people..if someone passes, fine. Someone who has actually taken the effort to go through srs, hormones and such...I find to be less threatening than a random self identifier? This may be the wrong view to have but lets be honest, women have shared spaces with transwomen for years and years without knowing it and it seemed to work perfectly well.

That's what I was trying to say, Monkey. The kind of transwoman who has put all that effort in is, as far as my understanding goes, likely to be a member of the group who aren't sexually interested in women. Their ambitions are very much otherwise.

I know men don't have to have a penis to commit sexual assault but I am a lot more worried about the 80% of transwomen who keep their penis than the ones who have SRS.

I am passionately opposed to men gaining the right to access woman only spaces. The current situation where you can protest if you see a man works and we all know what will happen if sex segregation gives way to gender feelz.

I'm still not convinced. If keeping women's spaces safe is about keeping people who look like men out (i.e. transmen) in order that men desiring access for nefarious reasons can be instantly spotted / called out then this won't work. For example - a man could be lurking in a change room and when called upon he could simply say that he is a transman. Or, if it becomes politically incorrect to call out anyone looking male in women's spaces for reasons of offending them then women will simply be silent and won't call out anyone looking suspicious.

Also, it is transmen who have started that ridiculous thing about how it isn't just women who menstruate or get pregnant, etc. Don't forget the stories about 'men who give birth' (who are really women) such as this one

I'm also aware that many transmen do put women down collectively and individually, and blame 'T' for some elements of aggression or nastiness towards women.

In relation to the issue of 'gender fraud', I don't know of any cases where transwomen have been accused of this (despite personally hearing from lesbian women re being pursued by transwomen who won't take 'no' for an answer). I do recognise that it is a minority of transmen who commit this, but I'm also wary that transitioning from female to male is relatively new, hence may skew numbers.

As said, I'm still thinking this through, but where I am inclined to stand now is with the perception that transmen can't have their privilege and eat it too ... if they want to be men (with male privilege), then I'm not sure that I want to jeopardise the limited protections that women have to accommodate them.

I'm honestly surprised at 'men who give birth". I struggle to 'get' those trans people who still 'use' their female / male organs in the ultimate way they were intended after they transition - men who still use their penis for sex and women who become pregnant. I really don't see how their struggle can be rationalised with becoming pregnant or using their penis - once they transition.

I would have thought that being a transman and being pregnant were incompatible if you were suffering from gender dysphoria. Just as deciding to use your penis for sex as a transwoman just doesn't make sense.

amispartacus - yes I agree. This does not make sense to me either.

I struggle with this as well. I don't know how you could rationalise an elective double mastectomy with a swelling , pregnant belly.

Re trans men there are loads of photos on the internet of transitioned trans men. The vast majority of them look unquestionably male.

Obviously elective mastectomies for cancer prevention are completely different to cutting breasts off because you hate the sight of them.

Why should disabled people be pulled into this mess?

If you're happy to get pregnant, gestate, and give birth how is that in any possible way being a man? It's being female to its core.

It shows the entire definition of trans up for what it has become - subjective and superficial with a heavy dose of having your cake and eating it too.

I agree Datun and in some cases go on to lactate and breast feed.

It shows the entire definition of trans up for what it has become

Being trapped in the wrong body - but then pregnancy and all that encompasses surely is the ultimate expression of your female body?

It's the same for transwoman who still want to use their penis for sex. I can sort of see why they may not have major surgery but then to use your penis to have sex - I don't get that. It is like 'having your cake and eating it'. How can you believe you're female but still want to use your penis for sex?

If you use your vagina, fallopian tubes, womb and breasts for the function they were designed, then I'm sorry, you are every inch a woman. And I cannot begin to understand the claptrap involved in convincing anyone otherwise.