Transmen committing 'gender fraud' / in women's spaces - thoughts?

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

This idea for a topic was spurred by a previous thread in which I wanted to bring up the issue of transmen committing crimes against women but didn't because the thread had undergone several massive derailments anyway.

Basically, the gist of it is that I'm curious re what people think re transmen (FtMs) who are attracted to women tricking girls / women into sex. There have been a few cases of this all successfully prosecuted - R v Gemma Barker [2012], R v Chris Wilson [2013], R v Justine McNally [2013], R v Gayle Newland [2015] and R v Kyran Lee (Mason) [2015]. This is generally known as rape by deception or 'gender fraud'. The FtM's used strap-ons.

I'm curious partly because there has been an increase in the number of girls identifying as 'trans', suggesting that ethical and legal issues re this group may come to the forefront in coming years, and partly because when learning about the trans phenomenon I came across a number of FtM sites where the women concerned were blatantly sexist, misogynist, considering of women as lesser beings and saying that they understood the world from a man's POV.

A bigger question given the above is whether FtMs should be welcome in women's spaces.

Some links, for those who are interested.

www.lawbot.info/blog/2016/11/8/criminal-injustice-3-heteronormativity-and-transgender
www.plymouthlawreview.org/vol8/childs%20trans%20article.pdf
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/12/gayle-newland-sentenced-eight-years-prison-duping-friend-having-sex

But a tiny group (who often seem to have mental health issues) have been allowed to redefine what being a man or woman, male or female is. All that matters is how you feel, identify, think - your body, traditionally accepted biology is no more. So yes, a penis can be female, a man can menstruate and have a baby.

I can't respect anyone who expresses that level of bullshit. Claiming to be a man while pregnant, or to be a woman while using your penis for sex... I'm sure some TRAs demand validation and the "correct pronouns" precisely because they know at some level what arrant nonsense it all is. If you're pregnant there surely can be no more blunt confirmation of womanhood than that?

I was in a Green Party meeting (you know, the party of the Non-Man ilk)
And some right on feminist students objected to the term "pregnant women" during a talk on abortion rights. They held up the "exclusionary" card meaning certain people were excluded, complaining that transmen were excluded because "men can get pregnant too"
I kid you not. I was there.

I took the line; No matter how you present yourself to the world, no matter what your identity, if you're able to fall pregnant there's always part of you that will be female and it's that part of you that falls pregnant. Transpeople will always have part of them designated by their original, born sex. This is important and I don't buy into "men can fall pregnant"
No. transmen can fall pregnant. The female essence of a transman can never be removed.

This did not go down well with the Green crowd. I pretty much STFU.

Why are they male?
Because they identify as such.
Do they have an issue with being in the wrong body and the dysphoria that comes with it?
No..
Do they have an issue with the gender 'role' they are supposed to be?
Yes.
But then they have become pregnant......So not that much of an issue really

Ophelia, I agree with your post on the whole, but would take issue with the phrase "feminine essence". The phrase suggests that there is something immaterial, a female soul perhaps. When a transman gets pregnant it's his female body that's pregnant, not any sort of essence.

I'm raising the issue is because trans activists put forward a "feminine essence" argument. To them the reason that they can claim to be women, regardless of a fully male body, is because they have this mysterious innate essence. In response to that, I would say you can only be a woman in a material sense. I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I know I'm a woman because of my anatomy and my life experience. There is no such thing as a "feminine essence".

Yeah... I wasn't sure exactly how to put it just then.
The female "part" of being a TM can never be removed? But you can have hysterectomy and mastectomy so that's not true.

I don't think I actually said "female essence" at the meeting. I just said "part of a transman will always be female and you can't change that" but have been bamboozled ever since with comments. I agree with you prawn

It's all back to 'what is a woman'?

Science/dictionary definition/lived experience

or

Feelz

The Green party hit the sels-destruct button long ago tbf

Yes and likewise what makes a man?

I've had so many cocks shoved up me and have performed femininity to such a high (standard?) degree throughout my life, I think I know who is the bigger threat to women. It's not some dyke in DMs and on hormones,

It's men. Men who can get me pregnant. Men who are muscular and socialized as male.

Twogoats lol. I've given up on them! Members do make for ever challenging chats.

The Greens, like other parties on the left, are misogynists. We expect the right to oppress women but the left are just as bad. To class women as non-men is really grossly offensive. I want nothing to do with people like that.

Yes, Ophelia. I've been extremely lucky in the men in my life, in general, but that doesn't mean I don't know how dangerous men can be. I'm wary of men, not women. It's not the lesbian in a dark alley who worries me. I can't remember ever hearing of a sexual assault on a stranger committed by a lesbian.