Transmen committing 'gender fraud' / in women's spaces - thoughts?

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

This idea for a topic was spurred by a previous thread in which I wanted to bring up the issue of transmen committing crimes against women but didn't because the thread had undergone several massive derailments anyway.

Basically, the gist of it is that I'm curious re what people think re transmen (FtMs) who are attracted to women tricking girls / women into sex. There have been a few cases of this all successfully prosecuted - R v Gemma Barker [2012], R v Chris Wilson [2013], R v Justine McNally [2013], R v Gayle Newland [2015] and R v Kyran Lee (Mason) [2015]. This is generally known as rape by deception or 'gender fraud'. The FtM's used strap-ons.

I'm curious partly because there has been an increase in the number of girls identifying as 'trans', suggesting that ethical and legal issues re this group may come to the forefront in coming years, and partly because when learning about the trans phenomenon I came across a number of FtM sites where the women concerned were blatantly sexist, misogynist, considering of women as lesser beings and saying that they understood the world from a man's POV.

A bigger question given the above is whether FtMs should be welcome in women's spaces.

Some links, for those who are interested.

www.lawbot.info/blog/2016/11/8/criminal-injustice-3-heteronormativity-and-transgender
www.plymouthlawreview.org/vol8/childs%20trans%20article.pdf
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/12/gayle-newland-sentenced-eight-years-prison-duping-friend-having-sex

So the cases I've read about have been a trans man in a relationship with a woman where they haven't disclosed their trans status, not a trans man attacking a woman. In at least one case the trans man was getting pressured for sex and capitulated with a dido so as not to out themselves.
So I would have no problem with them in a woman's space. I don't think they are opportunist attackers.
Of more interest to me us that it seems to be acceptable to misgendering the trans men and use head lines such as "pretended to be a man" yet when a trans woman murders it's not even mentioned they are trans

Bumble - or we could use words to describe their sex, rather than adding more parameters to obfuscate?

Btw, I think it's essential that the same rule applies to everyone

I'm not certain it is. I think it's essential that we know the purpose of a rule, and obey the spirit, not the word.

MTF not in women's spaces because they are male.

FTM not in women's spaces because they look male and it worries the women (and, actually, can more likely be trusted to obey this rule in my experience)

I do understand the point that how much one looks like a woman shouldn't be a part of this.

It seems to me that the honour system is fine, that FTM have shown they can be trusted not to cause issues, but MTFs (TAs, AGPs) have shown the opposite, and therefore are excluded. Some transwomen have earned the privilege back for themselves, and get to be honourary women (gatekeeping? Yes but what's actually wrong with women getting to say who they consider women?)

Kinda like I can trust DS1 to sit next to the sweetie box. He has proven he can be trusted not to binge, but DS2 does not have sweetie box privileges because he's shown that he can't be trusted.

FTM not in women's spaces because they look male and it worries the women

And they've also taken testosterone which probably affects their behaviour.

That survey showed that FTM do commit more crime - including violent crime compared to women. And since any crime committed by FTMs would be recorded as a male crime, we can't really say that someone is at less risk of assault. Chances are they won't want to place cameras in changing areas - but what's to stop a man saying that he's a transman and putting a camera in a female changing area?

I don't know what the solution is that will stop men taking advantage of any law to access female safe spaces.

Chaz Bono and DM look very similar. One is a transwoman (well, they claim to be) and one is a transman.

I've always been of the opinion that transmen should have access to female spaces because they constitute less of a physical threat and do not have male aggression.

However I've taken another look at that study, and that would not appear not to be the case.

By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime

Frankly, I'm a little floored. If it was all about the hormones, then transwomen wouldn't maintain male pattern violence.

*sorry - 2 nots! But I'm sure it's clear.

I've heard Cathy Brennan, lesbian lawyer and activist, speak about transmen, who are often lesbians pretransition. She speaks of the misogyny they often display, and stereotypical masculine behaviour. From her description I suspect a lot of it comes down to performing gender rather than being caused by testosterone, though I expect it's partly hormones. After all testosterone levels are highest in youth, the age men typically commit most crimes, with older men far less violent.

Four loos then.

"How do I know if they are a threat or not? I can't tell if they have a penis or not. If they look male. then I perceive them as a threat. I don't want a man saying 'I'm a transman, it's ok' - because how do I know if they are telling the truth?"

Thanks for all the responses. I'm still gathering my thoughts, and I realise that my OP tended to conflate a lot of issues (testimony to my muddled thoughts I suspect).

But the above quote (from amispartacus) refers to something that is niggling at me ... If transmen like Buck Angel and a few others photographed here

au.pinterest.com/020Jackson020/ftm-stuf-my-examples-ect/

do enter women's space I'd assume they were male. I can't tell the difference between them and Danielle Moscato.

So is that opening the door to men who want to enter women's spaces for a whole range of reasons to say 'it's OK, I'm a transman'?

I realise that the above may not sit well with people, but I think that the whole trans thing is a somewhat tough issue and needs to be debated and thought through in order that we can gain real clarity about a range of tricky issues.

*MTF not in women's spaces because they are male.

FTM not in women's spaces because they look male and it worries the women (and, actually, can more likely be trusted to obey this rule in my experience)*

Is it not so much that FTM can be be trusted to stay out of women's spaces because they don't actually want to be in them? They want to be in men's spaces, surely, so not really a big problem keeping them out of women's.

That survey showed that FTM do commit more crime - including violent crime compared to women.

Interesting. Wonder what they were like pre-transition? Some women are violent sadly, maybe they were predisposed to that before the transition.

There's a very interesting article on transmen in women's loos on the Gendertrender blog.

Is it not so much that FTM can be be trusted to stay out of women's spaces because they don't actually want to be in them? They want to be in men's spaces, surely, so not really a big problem keeping them out of women's.

Yes, I was thinking this ... but somewhere in the morass of the thread that got derailed there was the suggestion that the law should decree that 'space' is on the basis of genitalia. I was also wondering what might happen if transmen who looked / identified and acted male (including with internalised misogyny) ended up in a women's ward or shelter ...?

There is law in parts of the USA that says that trans people should use the toilet / shared area that conforms to their biological status, not their gender identity. Which means transmen should use the female toilets.

Ignore my feeble attempts at making sense. Just read the article that Prawn posted. It's brilliant and captures most of my points better than I can articulate them.

Which parts of the USA does that law exist in?

North Carolina

www.ncleg.net/sessions/2015e2/bills/house/pdf/h2v4.pdf

Sometimes all the hours, nay, days and days reading that I've done on this topic result in being able to supply useful stuff. Glad it's helpful, Spartacus.

Not true about North Carolina.

Trans people who have been through the legal procedure and had their documents altered can use the facilities of the opposite sex. The law just stops random self identifiers.

You cannot always tell if someone is a transwoman. That will also become more difficult in years to come because of hormone blockers. But I agree that older men who transition are easy to spot.

So taking testosterone to transition may seem to make a non-male more aggressive in some instances, but a transman will never be able to get a woman pregnant, even considering sexual coercion there's less risk at the end of the day. They (a transman) will generally never attain the height, bone/muscular density, size of the hands etc that a man or transwomen will have.

My view is a transman is a subset of woman and less of a threat than a man or a transwomen, a subset of men.

So any woman or subset of woman = woman space.
Any man or subset of man = male space.

So any woman or subset of woman = woman space.
Any man or subset of man = male space

But, if you cannot tell the difference between trans men and some FtT trans people who self identify and don't transition (such as Danielle Moscato), and men how will this work in practice?

I'm with Ophelia. Transmen are female. They don't have male genitals or male socialisation. They belong in women only spaces because they are women.

There's also the consideration that in the near future, a lot of poor young women will be de-transitioning. It's already started. Read the survey of more than 200 young women conducted by Cari of Guide on Raging Stars. The responses were collected over just over two weeks this August. These women, and many others, will need female solidarity as they come to terms with themselves.

As for identifying transmen and differentiating them from men, I've heard women who look super masculine say that if anyone gives them the side eye in the loos they just make some remark and, as soon as the other woman hears their voice they relax. Transwomen, otoh, always sound like men.

Also with 0phelia. If you don't allow transmen who look like a man into your space, by the same token you must allow transwomen who look like women into your space.

It can't be about perceived threat. It has to go with the statistical chance.

I agree, there will be the odd occasion where it is difficult to tell, but that doesn't mean I want I agree, there will be the odd occasion where it is difficult to tell, but that doesn't mean the law shouldn't be made.

The issue is presumably not trans men in general but women who take cross sex hormones.

As people are buying them over the Internet, there is no practical way of keeping women who use them out of women's loos, even if you did want to take that stance.

I would prefer for transmen to have their own separate spaces from women who don't take testosterone and don't immerse themselves in toxic masculinity.

However, if we are faced with the choice between transwomen and transmen in our spaces, I take the actual females, thank you very much.

I think this is two separate matters. Transmen who use the women's loo will not be able to trick the women there into having sex by pretending to be male, obviously.
So, they are not actually a threat in those spaces, even though they can be a threat elsewhere.

And yes, it is unfair and very revealing that transwomen who trick lesbians into being penetrated by an actual penis don't seem to cause so much anger in the general population. Why might that be?

It is both rape, but I think it is time we acknowledge material reality and make it so that, where this is not already the case (with rape versus sexual assault definitions) male-on-female rape is punished extra for putting the woman at danger of pregnancy and infection. Especially in the not physically violent rape cases where a man pretends to use a condom but doesn't, etc.

I mean, if you consented to being penetrated by a penis and get a dildo instead, this is rape, too, but it doesn't add physical damage in the way male ejaculation does.

But, if you cannot tell the difference between trans men and some FtT trans people who self identify and don't transition (such as Danielle Moscato), and men how will this work in practice?

Trans who pass as their desired gender should use the disabled loo until such time (which hopefully never comes) that there are so many of them that creating a third space for them is warranted.

Those who do not pass as their desired gender but are clearly recognizable as their actual sex can use the spaces for their sex.

(This would, I think, also take care of the transmen problem, as I think the more violent ones are probably the ones who take testosterone and strongly identify as men. There's also those who just want to identify out of being a target of male violence, and many who just identify as "agender"; I don't think those will be a problem in female spaces.)