Paris Lees article on toilets in Guardian today

[OlennasWimple]

Beware: reading this article may be bad for your blood pressure...

Sorry about mistakes, hard to edit on my phone.

Titania - I agree with your last paragraph (I refuse to be called "cis" too)

I'm amazed Paris is only 28 - I assumed around 40!

I find it pretty creepy that Paris's persona is supposed to be 19 with the harassment and sexploit stories, it just makes the pornification aspect worse.

titiania

Sex segregation based on religious reasons is something that a lot of people have put forward as another potential minefield with regards to trans rights.

Could those transwomen who contact you and send rude messages insist on access to the women only area?

Maybe Paris is trans chronological too?

Datun at the moment no, as nobody would put up with that, but if legislation changes then I believe it will become a problem. As muslims are often seen as disregarding the rights of vulnerable women anyway, so for a mosque to challenge the law would open up a minrfield. It will judt lead to the sisyers who are conyrolle having less opportunity to go out and mix. O know this because i used to be one of them, my husband eould not have allowd me to be in a space with trans.

There are actually hadith about it, Prophet Muhammad was asked about the eunuchs and he advised keep them away from the women. Its not well known though.
There was one case of a guy pretending to be female or trans, dunno which, who set up a forum for vulnerable sisters and those who have been through abuse, so women were posting very personal things, anyway he was outed because he was asking girls to send him pictures of their vaginas as he is a 'doctor' and can diagnose any sexual problems they have!

Its a problem, and they are of course fascinated by the hijab especially if a pretty woman is wearing it.

I have had a few contact me on fb, gave them the benefit of the doubt that they are female and then they send PM's that no female would, usually they can't speak English well either. We get a lot of passport seeking young men too harassing us, and they try similar tactics.

Aaargh!!! Why can't I edit like a normal human???? Sorry. Hope it's not illegible.

Perfectly legible and very interesting, Titania, particularly the hadith bit.

An American transwoman convert to Islam made the most ridiculous vdeo about how mean the mosque is for not respecting his gender identity.

The hadith about eunuchs isn't mentioned, but his squirminess over reality is entertaining.

Interesting Titania

So, by your experience, some Muslim women could be stopped from going to public toilets if the worse case scenario happens?

So, by your experience, some Muslim women could be stopped from going to public toilets if the worse case scenario happens?

If so, would those women be being discriminated against on religious grounds?

There will be a lot of people tying themselves in knots trying to sort that one out.

Um, I'm not entirely sure how it would work out as I'm not the strict Muslim I used to be and no longer married to a madman. (Thank you God.)

But if trans are hanging about in the sisters section or in the bathrooms at the mosque where sisters have to partially undress to get ready for prayer or are breastfeeding, I know a lot of Muslims would have a problem and either protest or stop going to the mosque or use it to keep women and girls at home more often.

A lot of Muslim women use public loos as places to adjust hijab or wash to pray too, so life in general will become more complicated and they will have to look for loos in cafes etc outside of their colleges or units or work places.

You know I really need to ask some of the sisters I know about this, the ones who are quite strict and hijabees etc as I said so many just can't see the consequences of what can happen, though when I posted my feelings the other day I got rounds of applause virtually from quite a few of my fb friends. The problem is that the media is not reporting this properly. They are insisting its an issue about where someone pees. Just not the case.

There us a Muslim women's swimming group near me, mist ladies wear leggings and a T-shirt to go in and swim and take their daughters, they would have no problem with a non muslin woman coming so Kong as she covers up a little bit more than in a normal swim session. But if trans come into that space and into the changing rooms it will change the whole thing, the Muslim women will stop going, most voluntarily but some because the men in their lives just would not allow that. I think because sometimes Muslims see themselves as outside of the mainstream that they are assuming that this issue will pass them by too.

Also a woman can't physically be touching a man (non relative)while she prays as far as I know and men can't pray behind women, so if you don't know who is who, that buggers up praying too.

Titania's Closet - I am so sorry to read that you and your sisters are being targetted by TRAs. Toilets aside, I'm appalled that they are contacting you directly and demanding access to your spiritual spaces and sexually harassing you and your sisters.

I'm curious to know if this is being spoken about anywhere publicly? When I do Google searches all I get are hits re muslim transwomen being rejected by the community, etc.

Also, I'm curious to know if the individuals harassing you are those born into the faith or converts?

Prawn thanks so much for the video, haven't watched it all yet, but it gives me something else to port to wake these people up.

A lot of them seem to be born Muslims, the type from repressive countries that have problems with gays etc. They can end up with messed up attitudes towards women so British or American sisters are seen as strange sexualized fascinating unicorns to that type of dodgy bloke. We get harassed by MRA's too if we say anything pro women's rights. But it seems at the moment that Muslim women are less likely to fanny about to save feelings and will call it as it is.

Bloody nightmare though isn't it? Has feminism gone backwards????

I haven't seen it spoken about publically, only on small Facebook groups.

I assumed they were likely to be converts who fetishised the veil / idea of the harem... If they are gay, why are they propositioning you (not doubting you, just trying to understand).

Oh no, they are not gay, I'm just saying the often come from countries where women's rights or being gay is an issue. I think a very repressed culture breeds all sorts of confusion

. A lot of the MRA s from a different home culture whether in US or UK just can't handle it that we are comfortable speaking about sex or women's rights too, had one a couple of weeks ago say its OK to punch us feminists and western women but he would never treat a woman from his own culture like that, it just blew his mind that a Muslim woman can be western and identify as a feminist.

I'm making this more confused than it needs to be!! My point is its a mixed bag of crap we contend with and very difficult to work out if these men want to be women or just put a female profile pic so Muslim women will add them. Until they start actively harassing you or sending dick pics that is. We even have a Facebook page set up to have a good laugh at the passport seekers and weirdos and warn each other. Because its every day that they try to be added, whether they are men on their profiles, or trying to pass as female. I have one at the moment who I haven't bothered to unfriendly who just randomly sends me messages telling me I'm beautiful despite using a pic of a teenage girl in his profile. He hasn't been abusive yet so I just ignore.

But as for fetishising, the snout of white men who fetishize Asian women and hijab us ridiculous. They see them as more submissive or something. Have a Pakistani friend whose boyfriend was asking her to wear hijab in bed which makes me feel a bit sick really as its a religious symbol.

Amount not snout!

TitaniasCloset I am finding your posts very interesting and informative.
I had wondered about the impact on Muslim women and it's interesting to hear all the background.

Thank you!

Fascinating stuff, TitaniasCloset, thanks for sharing

OneFlew - I should clarify that it's my reading of PL's presentation that she likes to try to present as about 19, I've not seen her talk about her age anywhere. Maybe I've misread it?

TitaniasCloset

Me too. Very informative.

But crikey. Men! I know this is a feminist board, and I'm fairly new to feminism but really! Perhaps I shouldn't have started! But the can's open now.