Jenni Murray Woman's hour today (trans)

[Notwhatiexpected]

Hey,
Did anyone hear Jenni Murray on woman's hour today, her guest was India Willoughby. India is trans and was advocating that it was correct for the Dorchester to dictate that their female staff shave their legs.

India was very spiked in her conversation and implied Jenni was transphobic because the panalists didn't agree.

Again, a woman being called transphobic because they didn't agree with a transwoman's opinion.

Thank you Jenni for standing up for women!

Intersex is one of the terms used to describe people who's sex is undetermined at birth, internal testi, for example.

Her Twitter feed is full of people saying Jenni Murray "probed' her about leg shaving in a crass and transphobic fashion.

Twitter, always the place to go for an educated debate.

Does India think women should shave their balls too? this is all too confusing

Userlotsofnumbers, that's what this conversation is about, this thread is an example of whether it is possible or not for people to disagree with the position a Transwoman takes, without being called transphobic. And it smacks of misogyny.

Which is a galling position for women to find themselves in.

User
Intersex people are those with either a genotypical or phenotypical disorder of sexual development. Depending on which disorders are classified under intersex, it can include somewhat abnormally formed external genitalia (eg a very large clitoris.) Usually it refers to conditions such as extra X or Y chromosomes, underdeveloped reproductive systems, or a sex appearance that does not match one's chromosomes, amongst other things.
It has been co-opted by trans activists in recent years, who try to link intersex with trans as causes. Some intersex people are okay with that, but many find it very offensive.

India was astonishingly ignorant of the issues involved
and happy to remain so
breathtaking

Presumably the requirement for women to shave their legs is because of a requirement for their legs to be visible too?
Why should men have to shave their legs, because they wear long trousers so nobody will see them?
If the women didn't have to wear skirts in the first place, nobody would even know.

user I have no idea, I'd never heard of her before today. But she was on earlier promoting herself and kept on to give opinion piece on Dorchester hotel piece. Have you actually heard the programme?

I don't know about the Dorchester, but where I am, hotel staff can be seen in shorts when working at the pool/beach bar - both men and women, and I've yet to see a male member of staff with shaved legs.

I completely resent the idea that in order to be clean, I have to be shaved, purely because I'm a woman. That is sexism, pure and simple.

I've just listened to this - I love Woman's Hour. I think India came across very badly at the end. Jenni was asking a perfectly reasonable question about leg shaving and India immediately jumped down her throat and accused her of having a hostile attitude to Trans. The typical Trans activist way to get us pesky feminists to shut up! It did make me laugh when she referred so negatively to 'these feminists ' at the beginning of the program. Who does India think listens to it?

Poet...I don't agree with India's stance but she's not got a penis...she lives as a woman. She's not of the other sex.

Sorry to be a boring stickler for facts and truth and dull stuff, but India is male, and always will be, since sex is unchangeable. Thus "other sex" in relation to the group India believes should be compelled to shave their legs. India believes in gender (I don't) and that's fine, but being biologically male and believing in a feminine gender for oneself doesn't really give India much common ground with the people who are biologically female and don't share a belief in gender, now does it?

So whilst it's super that India gets to live India's life the way India likes, it would be awfully nice if India realised that India has precisely zero insight on the lives, rights and experiences of people of the opposite sex and probably should stop telling the opposite sex to shave their hairy legs or face losing their jobs.

I imagine India is staggeringly confident in her belief that her word is correct, and that anyone who disagrees with her is wrong.

She probably didn't really consider the listeners as anything other than props to her performance of femininity. She is a woman, therefore she is entitled to take part in the radio show.

(Whoops for poet's response)

Poet is spot on. The whoop was one of joy.

Here we go again.

What is a woman?

I'd love someone to probe further
"Exactly who do you think should be compelled to shave, and who shouldn't?"
-Women should, and men shouldn't.
"And to be clear, by women and men you mean?"

• people who identify as women and people who identify as men

"right. And what about the people who don't identify as either?"

• non-binary? er...

"yes non-binary. Tricky. What about people who don't ascribe to gender theory at all. Some people are gender-atheists, if you like. What should they do? How do we know which ones to tell to shave, and which ones not to?"

• .................................

Let's call it for what it is, shall we?

India needs the female sex to shave so that there is a thing that male people can also do that gives them the teeny tiniest flimsiest justification the world can offer for explaining why transgender women are the same as females.

And we bloody women keep wafting our hairy trunks around and ruining the damn illusion.

Now hairy, that's naughty on two levels - first because you're using the genderists' arguments to beat them with, and secondly because the formatting got me all excited that it would be in the form of a comedy verse.

Or a song....we could have a SONG!

I heard this on the radio and wondered if there would be a thread about it.

When India talked about her transition at first I thought that she was articulate and she sounded very reasonable.

I did feel that Jenni Murray's segue towards the shaving legs was a little ham-fisted, it was a bit of a non-sequitur to ask if India shaved her legs as a man and I did cringe a bit at that question.

However like the rest of you I became progressively more shocked by her responses to The Dorchester questions. Was there not also a bit where she said as well that she loves doing her own grooming, in a way that someone who has not been forced to remove their body hair because of social conditioning for their entire life would perhaps enjoy it.

Maddening really. You'd think that someone who had lived like a captive (apart from still being free to ) all their lives would have a bit more empathy for their gender of choice.

India's first piece made no sense at all. After recounting the reddit trans script India's child and adult experience of being trans, India said that anatomy has nothing to do with gender. Why have surgery then? Nothing India said stood up to scrutiny.

What do you think the odds are that the next new presenter on Woman's Hour will be trans?

Heard this. Did a massive eye roll.

Well done Jenni for remaining so polite and courteous.