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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Jenni Murray Woman's hour today (trans)

401 replies

Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 11:12

Hey,
Did anyone hear Jenni Murray on woman's hour today, her guest was India Willoughby. India is trans and was advocating that it was correct for the Dorchester to dictate that their female staff shave their legs.

India was very spiked in her conversation and implied Jenni was transphobic because the panalists didn't agree.

Again, a woman being called transphobic because they didn't agree with a transwoman's opinion.

Thank you Jenni for standing up for women!

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Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 11:57

Hi userloadsofnumbers, Jenni asked if India was perhaps new to the debate of prescribing feminine grooming standards, and had a juvenile transphobic accusation thrown back at her.

Yes, some women do agree, but they don't call you a bigot for having a different opinion.

Jenni was incredibly polite and kind, trying to bring India up to speed, and into the debate, but India didn't embrace that kindness.

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user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 11:58

Again there are loads of women who were born as women who subscribe to the bullshit media pushed image of what women should look like in order to be deemed attractive.

Trans women are no different to any other human in that we won't all agree with all of their opinions.

shivermytimbers · 02/12/2016 11:58

Notwhat - exactly Grin

user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 11:58

Sorry cross post.

Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 11:59

Cross post, I replied above you!

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HairyLittlePoet · 02/12/2016 12:04

hate train
yawn
choo choo

Someone who is of the sex that DOESN'T have to shave their legs to be deemed "clean" opting to dictate to people of the other sex that they SHOULD shave theirs is always going to be more offensive, wouldn't you say?

Unless of course they mean only transwomen ought to shave in which case I've no issues.

user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 12:07

Poet...I don't agree with India's stance but she's not got a penis...she lives as a woman. She's not of the other sex.

chitofftheshovel · 02/12/2016 12:08

India did a fine job of being completely disingenuous in adding to the "gender debate". And managed to contradict arguments used beautifully.

Her grandmother had taken her to one side when she was little and explained that boys and girls played with different toys (India said something like "blue toys" - the implication being that it was noticed that as a child it was toys "meant" for the opposite gender that interested child. (This was at the beginning of woman's hour, when talking about life and transitioning with jenni)

Later, when talking about the Dorchester hotels edict to its female staff india referred to an earlier conversation in the programme where Jenni had mentioned enjoying pink and fairy dust as a young girl. India insists that "that's normal for all girls to go through at that stage".

In my opinion, it is normal for some girls to do so, and some boys to do so. India is adding to the (still male dominated) construct of what little girls should be like and what little boys should be like.

Later, when asked about shaving legs whilst living as a man India responded " what a bizarre question Jenni, why would I shave my legs when I was living as a man". Yet later when talking about the service industry stated servers should have "certain standards" and that "the expectation is that you do look clean". Absolutely, I'm with you there India. However, to then go on and state that you wouldn't like to be served by "somebody with hairy legs, grubby nails and looking a bit worse for wear" (obviously referring to female servers, male servers are fine to have hairy legs).

A brilliant bit of enforced "gender" right there. I could go on.

SpeakNoWords · 02/12/2016 12:09

I don't even know what point India was making, as it was just a rambling comment about choosing to shave your legs or not in different circumstances. Nothing about being compelled to do so by your employer. The "clean" comment is indefensible for me, as it's very clear that men don't need to shave their legs to be considered clean.

Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 12:10

Hairy - good point.

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Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 12:12

Chitofftheshovel - YES! Your summary is spot on.

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Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 12:14

They should have India on more often, the more she speaks the more people might listen to what she is saying.

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user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 12:18

Well she's a bit of a fool but loads of women think that way. I see them on here ALL the time.

If you go about picking on every thing that a trans woman says and then saying "Oh yes, look...they're ALL sexist men in reality!"

Then you'll look like just as much as a wanker as them. Not all trans women are ignorant like this.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/12/2016 12:19

ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007qlvb/contact

Please write in and complain about Willoughby and support Jenni!

user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 12:22

Do you all hate ALL transwomen here on MN Feminism?

Honest question. I'd really like to know. Is it a general thing...like "Oh there's a man pretending to be a woman in order to fuck us up"

Or is there more to it than that? Are SOME transwomen "ok" or not in your opinion?

What about trans men?

WoodsTreesWhere · 02/12/2016 12:23

My mouth fell open when listening to this.

The same way it would have done had any woman have said what India did.

MissiAmphetamine · 02/12/2016 12:23

User
I don't think that removing one's penis makes one a woman, anymore than losing it in a workplace accident would Hmm
As for "living as a woman," Willoughby certainly has all the most awful, misogynistic stereotypes well on display, I suppose. Not sure that counts, though.
It'd be like me living on a diet of cheese and nesting in a hole in the wall, being "living as a rat" - it still doesn't make me one.

BakeOffBiscuits · 02/12/2016 12:23

"Picking on everything a trans woman says"

None had done this!

The thread was started and people are angry because a trans woman told Jenni Murrry she was being transphobic when she very clearly was not.

Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 12:26

Hi again lots of numbers. No, not at all, personally I just dislike people who seek to reduce my sex to a stereotype, defined by fluctuating gender approved norms. And that if I step outside of these norms, or don't agree with them, I am abused.

We probably have a lot in common.

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LumelaMme · 02/12/2016 12:26

India had no answer when asked why women were held to higher standards of grooming than men: not even an attempted answer.

As for that bollocks about how 'all girls' go through the pink and fairy dust stage, um, no. I was a girl and NEVER went through a pink stage (I went through a rather long stage of toy cars and Lego). If India is being paraded as an ambassador for the trans community, they're not doing themselves any favours. And telling Jenni Murray that she was 'hostile' when she asked if India had the faintest clue about the topic of leg-shaving and what an issue it had been was just bloody stupid.

Not all trans women are ignorant like this.
I think I know that. But having India on Woman's Hour.... AAAARGH!

MissiAmphetamine · 02/12/2016 12:29

Honestly, User, whether they're sexist or not, they're still males going about saying that "woman" is a bunch of stereotypes and amorphous feelings, not the biological reality of being female. And they're trying to eradicate female-only spaces, to our detriment. So I'm not sure why any intelligent female should be in support of that.
Sure, there are some lovely transsexuals who are fully aware they're male, and simply want to present how makes them happy without infringing on women's rights or spaces, and that's fine by me I suppose. But they're not the issue, here.

Original poster
Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 12:29

lots of numbers, what with Trans being an umbrella term, I do have more love for the people at the intersex end, than the fetishistic cross-dreamers at the other.

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chitofftheshovel · 02/12/2016 12:32

user you are totally missing the point. Nobody has said that they're All sexist men - i for one do not believe that.

But India has made her own "brand" of who India is and what it is to be a female Purely based on social constructs about gender which have nothing whatsoever to do with being female or male.

user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 12:33

NotwhatIexpected...what is intersex? People who swap about on a regular basis between both sexes?

user1477282676 · 02/12/2016 12:33

"Chit" is she well known for saying stupid things? If so why on earth would they have her on Woman's Hour?