Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

[BeyondTheHarpy]

I know this has already been mentioned in the PL thread, but I thought it might be an idea to bring it to the attention of mners in a thread of its own.

After the PL debacle, there followed a thread in AIBU about toilet. On which this post appeared...
"I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

So, yeah, just letting you know that they are (allegedly) on the case with mnhq.

Yes Elsa - there have been events staged where women and moderate transwomen tried to find middle ground but have been shouted down (literally - I will try to find a link to a video if you're interested) by transactivists. And the moderate transwomen, or truscum as the TAs call them, come in for a whole world of shit which many are too vulnerable to want to handle.

I would rather compromise but if I have to take sides I will go for women, because fundamentally you cannot convince me that biological sex does not exist or that great harm will not be caused to women by denying that.

I'm just going to re-post this amazing contribution from TalkingintheDark, because she sums up the issues, I think.

"Who is entitled/qualified to define the meaning of the word "woman"?

When I first discovered the trans threads, I was initially baffled by how anyone could even be suggesting that transwomen are actually women, when the biological truth that they're not is so patently obvious.

It took me a while to realise that the argument hinges on the TRAs having assumed the right to redefine the meaning of the word woman. They have decided that woman no longer means adult human female, but "anyone who identifies as a woman, who 'feels like' a woman inside."

Leaving aside the obvious problem that there is actually no definition of what a woman actually is in the TRAs' versions, this is the battle ground now. TRAs maintain that the essence of womanhood is a real thing, regardless of male biology. And in that belief system it is hateful to say TW aren't women.

We have not given our consent to this new definition. We weren't even asked our opinion. Our experience of living as women under a patriarchal, oppressive system for generation upon generation, our experience of battling sexism, being feminists, fighting for equality and safety - it all counts for precisely nothing in the face of the TRAs' assertion that being a woman is a feeling.

So by whose authority did they twist language to make it suit their agenda? Why did they feel entitled to do so, without so much as a by your leave? What makes them think that as people born male (and no, not fucking assigned male at birth, BORN biologically, reproductively male) they are not only qualified but MORE qualified than us to say what it is to be a woman?

Not by my authority, that's for sure. I see this as just another marker on the continuum of male violence against women, where male people take what they want from female people regardless of whether the female people consent or not, because they can. Because even MtTs, far from being the most oppressed group on the planet, are still infinitely more powerful than women.

MNHQ, if there were a group of MRAs campaigning to have DV decriminalised, I doubt very much you would give them any kind of platform, much less a chairing role on the subject of being a force for good. But this bigotry and misogyny goes unchallenged and is even feted and held up as an inspiration - even though it is every bit as malign and dangerous as the "hypothetical" group of MRAs.

Men have been taking what they want from women without our consent since time immemorial. Now, under the guise of "equality" they want to take our very identities and access to all our safe spaces and services and awards that have been created by feminism, by the struggles of WOMEN, as compensation for our inferior status in society. They are even claiming ownership of feminism now!!! And yet we are being cast as the bigots for resisting them; prevented in very many ways from even speaking and being heard."

It's not about toilets

There is no need for anyone to "climb in through the window", that's exactly the point that you seem to be missing, All! Self-identification means that anyone - literally anyone - can walk through the door, and no one can say anything until the inappropriate behaviour has occurred.

People have said they are unhappy about the self identification too many times to count

It keeps getting 'missed'

Did another AS on All to see if I can find out what her deal is, but she's flounced. Seems like she was getting a hard time on other threads too. Suspect it was her posting style.

I admit, I do find it hard when people are so blind. When they refuse to see implications. I find it fairly difficult to buy into the current ideology at all tbh. The lack of science, the gender stereotyping, the kids, the appropriation of womanhood, etc. The story of Alex Drummond on another thread would be fantastic, if he said he was male and not a woman. I wish it could just be more acceptable to mess about with gender without it being about rights. It's such a shame because it could really be a force for good.

And I feel desperately sorry for you monkey and what's happening to your DSD. It just doesn't work, does it?

I'm not scared or disgusted by TW. I'm pissed off at arrogant, aggressive, narcissistic,selfish young males (and not so young) who think they can stamp and shout, insult and threaten women and girls into getting what they want. No regard, respect, thought or concern for women bad girls. These makes are refining what "women and female" means. unbelievable!

I've always tried to be liberal and tolerant, used to argue for transfolk, a good little ally. I didn't have a clue. Now I'm just flabbergasted and pissed off at where we are and where it is going.

Bambam

That's my problem too. As soon I come across transactivists who are entitled, aggressive and male to their very core, I can promise you fear and pearl clutching is the very last thing on my mind.

Did another AS on All to see if I can find out what her deal is, but she's flounced. Seems like she was getting a hard time on other threads too. Suspect it was her posting style.

Yes, I saw the poster on the 'forced adoption' thread. Odd.

I was going to post a litany of all their anti-woman and dismissive statements (muff in face, pearl clutching, 'sneak a peek at your goodies', 'you're not suddenly all going to be under attack every single time you pull your pants down outside the house', etc.), but it hardly seems worth it.

How are things Monkey? Still thinking of you and your DSD.

I'm not scared or disgusted by TW. I'm pissed off at arrogant, aggressive, narcissistic,selfish young males (and not so young) who think they can stamp and shout, insult and threaten women and girls into getting what they want. No regard, respect, thought or concern for women bad girls. These makes are refining what "women and female" means. unbelievable!

I've posted this elsewhere too, but I thought we could all do with a somewhat ironic laugh ... you might enjoy this

rejecting-the-gender-cult.tumblr.com/post/131924675632/a-bit-of-levity-after-a-long-day (scroll until you see the video).

All:
But there is no regard for their safety or their feelings. How is that not transphobic? I understand that you are scared that weirdos will gain access to places, but I really don't think the way you are fighting it or talking about it or arguing it helps at all

So in other words, only the feelings and the safety of the transpeople matter.

The feelings of the women and girls and their safety are completely irrelevant.

And there is most likely some polite, meek, inoffensive way to go about putting our hands up and waiting for someone to give us permission to speak about it, but quietly, so as not to disturb anyone...

When I say mental gender I was talking about the gender you feel you are, thought that was pretty obvious

But what does that mean, 1DAD?

Do you feel you are a man?
How do you know?

How do you separate feeling like a man and feeling like you?
Do you know how it feels to be some other man?
Is there some feeling that you can put your finger on that is 'man'?

I am a woman. I do not know how it 'feels to be a woman'. I do not know if 'feeling like me' is the same as 'feeling like a woman'. I do not know how it feels to be my mother or my sister, both of whom are women.

It is not one bit obvious that people 'feel like women'. Or 'feel like men'.

"When I say mental gender I was talking about the gender you feel you are"

But I don't feel like I have a gender at all I don't even feel like a woman, whatever that means. I am a woman. These things have nothing to do with "feelz".

I don't "feel" like a woman. I don't know what that means, apart from the physical experiences of being female. I am a woman. I feel like me.

"But there is no regard for their safety or their feelings. How is that not transphobic?"

Caring for their safety or feelings doesn't mean we must throw women under the bus.

The way to protect a 5 potential stabbing victims from a killer should not be to throw 5,000 others under the killer's knife.

But I do like how you seem to have understood that Telling women to open their safe spaces to males with no regard for their safety or feelings is misogynist

Or does that only work for trans people because... males matter and females don't?

Cote

all has flounced (MN is 'vicious and cruel'. I think she was getting a hard time on other threads).

So don't wait for an answer to your question.

That's another thing actually. Although all was being provoking, to me, her angry posts had a strong undercurrent of personal fragility.

For me, the objections to the trans ideology are so watertight, I would love to see a more robust counter argument. It never happens. People either shriek and flounce, or stick their fingers in their ears.

I find it cheering that no one, so far, has been able to construct a justification for "transwomen are women" that withstands feminist analysis.

Allpart did seem fragile, even though she got so aggressive. All that internalized misogyny must be terribly uncomfortable. I understand, though. When I was very young I went for "bad boys". I wanted to be the special woman whose understanding would solve my tortured hero's problems. Until one day I woke up. Looked for healthy, equal relationships.

Allpart's attitude towards poor, suffering transwomen, with zero concern about the effect on women, reminds me of my own silly mistakes. It feels so much better when you grow out of that stage.

Although I doubted Allpart's claim to be a female survivor of sexual violence, I did also wonder if this might be true and that her attitude to the trans debate arose from a desperate need to feel safe following the trauma of an attack. She did say at one point that she could only live by not believing men were potentially violent. That's why I thought it was better to disengage, rather than argue, however much I disagreed.

If Allpart is reading this, I hope you are OK.

Have to admit I just assumed that Allpart was a TRA troll...

Now they have gone, I can come out of my self-imposed closet and say that I would not want a creep like Buck Angel anywhere near me or womyn's space. Buck does look (very much) like a (hypermasculine) man and they actively promote the exploitation of women in porn (they manage an adult entertainment business). There are many transmen who are actively misogynist and even some who have 'raped' (note inverted commas) women. By 'raped' I mean misled into thinking they were men and had sex using a strap-on. There are complexities here and I am not sure how to address them, but TBH I'd be quite concerned re having to share some spaces with the likes of Buck and similar!

My thinking is that Buck and those like them should stick to men's spaces out of respect for women - most women would be worried if they saw Buck in their space, whereas men would not blink.

Is that muddying the waters?

are we that week that we can't shout at someone to fuck off any more?

All very helpful for those of us who tend to freeze and dissociate.

I'm exactly the same, badhairday. I credit it for keeping me alive and uninjured during two rapes and one serious sexual assault.

shiny - that's exactly how I read it. A high likelihood that we were seeing the psychological survival strategy of "if I can persuade myself this was an incredibly rare freak event which won't ever happen again, I'll be okay". And that's fine as a personal strategy - you do what you have to to keep yourself functioning in everyday life. The trouble comes when you generalise from that coping mechanism to how life should be for everyone else.