Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

[shinynewusername]

1st thread here

MN has invited Paris Lee to speak at its Blogging event.

Meanwhile, actual women are being silenced.

Is anyone vaguely hoping MN are thinking if you give someone enough rope..?
Just thinking back to a holocaust denier being invited to speak at Oxford University debating society... "The Oxford Union is famous for is commitment to free speech and although I do think these people have awful and abhorrent views I do think Oxford students are intelligent enough to challenge and ridicule them"

I just checked out PLs Facebook too. Paris is an idiot. Wow, Paris made a video for wrangler abput how there is more to women than their arises. Groundbreaking! Paris told a white professor on TV he was mansplaining. Go Paris! All us women need to do is stand up for ourselves! We need you to show us the way!
There is a real air of condescension to women on that page.
Oh BTW I also read her sex article and I think most women like being fingered. It's part of the fun of having a vagina Paris

Paris's FB is a ton of filtered selfies and people liking them and blowing smoke up his arse. That's it really.

But the panel isnt on PL's views on women or on transgender stuff - its about using blogging to campaign for good! In that context, the event isnt the place to focus on Lee's views on women. Why cant the women who go just be able to listen to some other women talking about blogging and campaigning for good causes? What does PL have to offer here? A male person's view on their experience of being a male with male privilege fully attached 'campaigning' for themselves and other male's to have more of a voice in the media, while simultaneously ' campaigning' for women to be no platformed, shunned, and otherwise shut up?

Why has Justine literally given no examples of how PL has been involved in blogging for good despite being asked over and over? What relevance does Paris Lees to this topic and what do they bring to the panel??

Paris Lees has very little of relevance to offer here. It's terribly "cynical" of me no doubt, but I don't believe that was why Paris was asked. We can have it rammed down our throats yet again that Paris is a womanly woman blogging about women's things. No other opinion is acceptable.

I looked at their fb page too and see they've been given an honourary doctorate from the University of Brighton

This feels like a betrayal because it is one. JL and PL are in no way equivalent as has been pointed out very eloquently here. I notice Justine has still avoided all the difficult questions. Is this thread being kept off trending?

Lees actively campaigns AGAINST women. Her actual words endorse female harassment. Because, she personally, revels in it.

It's madness to NOT find her words repugnant.

And previous posters are right, if she wasn't using the 'protected characteristic' of 'trans' she would be nowhere.

I think part of the difference with jl vs pl is in what happens when you challenge the view. I suspect if you said to both "most women find cat calling degrading" the responses would be something like:

JL "I'm aware that liking cat calling isn't a universal view but personally I don't mind"
PL "how dare you tell me how women feel, you bigoted terf"

I don't get Justine now either. These threads have provided overwhelming justification for her to say 'Lees, we have a problem.'

I thought uninviting her might have been a problem to start with, but there is ample justification now.

I think I'm just gonna keep c&ping this (thanks Vincent)

Why has Justine literally given no examples of how PL has been involved in blogging for good despite being asked over and over? What relevance does Paris Lees to this topic and what do they bring to the panel??

datun what makes you think there is a problem, though? A few of the more troublesome members of the forum justine runs as part of their business disagree with a decision she has made - it's not going to make any difference to the bottom line.

Personally, I would have had far more respect for justine if she'd stood by the decision in the face of disagreement rather than try to persuade and justify it to members - but the bottom line is, MN Directors (and I have no doubt it is an issue at Director level now) have made a decision, and we can like it or lump it.

We are still a minority voice, and while MN has tolerated more than many MSM outlets - being shut down here has always been just an inevitable matter of time.

IMO Justine wants anything remotely trans critical off MN or least to be seen to be wanting that. I'm not remotely confused about why this is happening, it's crystal clear. Justine has a different opinion that's all except she gets to use the huge website she created to enforce hers.

I've read all of the OMgs and WTFs? and Justine's explanations as to why PL is a Blogfest Chair.

I've never heard of PL til yesterday. I can see how Justine is wishing to be inclusive and that PL will chair a session and that limits things to a degree (re the function of a chair rather than as contributor) but I'm still clueless as to what Justine sees will be any benefit. At all. Apart from a doffed cap in the on-line world to show how inclusive MN can be. But that can be achieved through less damaging means, esp with so many talented and track-record people available.

NN

I understand what you're saying. But to have chosen Lees over any other transwoman is the bit I'm struggling with, even for reasons of the bottom line. If Justine wanted to platform a transwoman, to show she was balanced about the ideology, that would be one thing. But choosing a transwoman who does absolutely zero favours to the ideology, is something I think has the element of a mistake about it.

It would be a very impressive Machiavellian move, if she had chosen Lees on the basis of 'enough rope'. But the likelihood is, she didn't quite realise the extent of Lees opinions, otherwise why choose HER ?

Pan

rowan is now chairing

Ah thanks Yonic.

Good ole policywonk. I'd vote for her all day every day. If I could.

Plus I think Justine is hitting the wrong zeitgeist.

Many more people are waking up to the damage that this latest aspect of the ideology is creating. The judge recently calling it 'cult like', The MSM outrage over the CBBC programme, even Trump's good-ole-boys election. Hell, even the huns on netmums are 'nah, if it's got a dick, it's a bloke'.

Mumsnet has brilliantly and painstakingly provided all the arguments, stats and science to counter the basis of the ideology. And it's spreading outwards. Any number of posters on here have said they have had their eyes opened.

Lees herself has been the tipping point for lots of posters on these two threads.

Also note some of the newspapers are now seeming to be a bit more balanced - recent article in a sat. Times mag, Independent.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

Absolutely Datun.

Another thing I'd put on that side is the Grayson Perry videos I've seen going round Youtube - I think one positive seachange that's been happening over the last few years is the idea that it's fine for men to wear dresses/perform femininity and they don't have to claim to be a woman to do so. The rise of non-binary identities is also challenging transactivist ideology even though again that's not on the same side as radfem gender theory.

In the light of this the Lees approach of 'I am 100% woman and if you don't believe me you can DIAF, wanker' is starting to look outdated as well as misogynistic.

YY - the 'expand the limits of your own sex' idea, in contrast to reifying gender.

In the light of this the Lees approach of 'I am 100% woman and if you don't believe me you can DIAF, wanker' is starting to look outdated as well as misogynistic.

It's starting to look like the biggest load of crap ever. Over large women with a wonky wig shuffling into your bathrooms once in a blue moon, was one thing. Loud, aggressive, demanding penis bearers insisting on complete access to vulnerable women and children everywhere, is quite another.

In my head I'm waving (my first ever) placard. To a dum dum de dum dum tune.

"Sex segregation -
It's there for a reason!"

Mumsnet, will you be adding the "DIAF wanker" tagline to the "this is my child" campaign?