Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

[shinynewusername]

1st thread here

MN has invited Paris Lee to speak at its Blogging event.

Meanwhile, actual women are being silenced.

Round of applause for Hairy! That was awesome :)

Of course, if money is the issue here (which of course it is) then the first thing we can all do is vote with our purses (or wallets) and not buy Dove (or whichever replacement sponsor's) stuff - although that's a bit tough when that sponsor is Unilever I admit!

I've been lurking and just want to say I hope RL sorts itself out River Tam, I've enjoyed your posts.

I skimmed through PL Facebook page. If they were made of chocolate they would eat themselves. And yes to the porn star cliche.

Brilliant, Hairy!

If you haven't seen yet, justine is back on the other thread

not nearly analogous to Trump and his extremely frequent and undeniable racism

You do realise that is entirely subjective, don't you, justine? I don't have a problem with you applying your own values to moderation of your own site, but at least be honest about it, rather than try and justify it using reasoning that you can drive a bus through!

Just signing into new thread to show my support.

Excellent posts above everyone. Thanks.

Great poetry skills Hairy!

Following on from the last thread - I hope Justine is reading this one.

Justine said:
'I don't agree - i think it shows that on MN we are trying very hard to maintain a space for a civilised debate on the trans issue where people consider other human beings' feelings. I'm afraid I'm beginning to think that might be impossible, though.'

I get that, Justine. But I think this is precisely why Paris Lees was a really awful choice - the fact that you have picked Paris as a speaker makes it harder for us all to do that.
Some of the transactivists maintain a generally civilised discourse. (Jane Fae was one I mentioned before - I don't just mean people like Miranda who are coming at it from the same direction as most of us here). But others, like Paris, basically take the approach that any level of abuse and dehumanising is fine against the enemy.
The whole Julie Bindel genitalia thing Paris did is an example.
If you want discourse on trans stuff to be civilised (and yes a lot of us REALLY REALLY want that too) you need to be careful not to give a platform to the people who escalate the aggression and that is basically one of Paris's main approaches.
I don't like being one of the people who tell you what you should do with your own website but I do think you have a responsibility here that was not fulfilled when you invited Paris to Blogfest.

A comparison was made on the previous thread that Joanna Lumley feels a similar way to Paris Lees about street harrassment, and would people be up in arms in the same way if JL was speaking at blogfest?

No, is the short answer. The long answer is that JL is a woman, so while she may well say some of the same things that a misogynist might say, she's still a woman speaking from a woman's perspective. I think that matters. Also, I don't recall her writing articles about how hot it is to fuck people while they're crying, calling feminists TERFs and wankers, campaigning against rights for women and claiming to speak for women while doing so.

The comparison was made by a mansplaining man. Quelle surprise.

Countess

"But I think this is precisely why Paris Lees was a really awful choice - the fact that you have picked Paris as a speaker makes it harder for us all to do that."

I agree, Roy Chubby Brown would have been a better choice than this. At least everyone knows what they are dealing with

Agreed selkie, I think it matters too. Not all women think the same way, we don't have a hive mind. Some women do like being wolf whistled and take it as a compliment. They are entitled to that opinion. I would guess, though, that the reason they like it is because they've been socialised to accept it. They're victims of a misogynistic society. PL has not been socialised that way because they were brought up as a boy. They really have no right how to tell women to be women and have no right calling themselves a feminist.

Justine says ' Paris Lees has on occasion said some dodgy things'. Dodgy things? Dodgy ? Ffs.

There's a pretty massive and key difference between what Paris and Joanna Lumley have said about harassment.
Joanna is talking about wolf whistling. If I am recalling the article correctly, Paris talks about enjoying being groped.

I love you, Hairy. Marry me and have my children.

Quoting Justine agreeing with growapear at the end of the last thread:

I'm not sure there would be quite the same backlash if Joanna Lumley were coming to Blogfest. Might be wrong though.

The difference between Joanna Lumley and PL is that JL hasn't consistently shown contempt for and hatred of women as a class. I disagree with JL on catcalling, but I disagree with PL on pretty much everything that comes out of PL's mouth. And the snide little remark at the end, just again accuses us of being transphobic. Does it count as a PA if it is aimed at everyone on the thread, or is that scattergun-like approach allowed?

Hairy, excellent poem!

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I'm not sure there would be quite the same backlash if Joanna Lumley were coming to Blogfest.

That is because JL is female and PL is [fill in the blank].

Difference between JL and PL is more than merely chromosomal. JL is speaking from a position of having lived through their wave choosey choice feminism, whereas the other example is speaking as someone who has never made any attempt to conceal their contempt for women.

Also Justine is agreeing with a man who has posted a seemingly never ending series of grim posts about his views about women.

It would be easy to suggest these things might be linked.

Ironically, Joanna lumley does actually have some real experience of running a successful campaign that helped people other than herself, unlike PL

I would also like to know now what Joanna says about the women who don't like being harassed, and whether it is comparable to what Paris says. I very much doubt it is.

Honestly though if Justine is going to take Growapear at his word about stuff we might as well give up.

Hmm, also JL, while I don't agree with her views on catcalling, they don't form her entire view of women. The same cannot be said about the other person.

JL is not a member of the sex that does the harassing.
Having a member of the harassing sex tell us how to feel about the harassment their sex doles out grates more, unsurprisingly.

JL speaks as an adult female, PL speaks as an adult male. These facts are are material in understanding the context in which each individual's statement is made. Branding as 'transphobic' disagreement with the words of a male who is in effect positioning themselves to be speaking as female fundamentally undermines the ability of women to use the language to describe their own oppression in a patriarchal system.

Let us now be clear; this itself is an actual oppression of females by males.

It would be easy to suggest these things might be linked.

I may be wrong, but it appeared that justine was desperately clutching at the first straw that was proffered to try and get out of the predicament she finds herself in.

I learnt, from MN ironically, that when DCs are argumentative and non-compliant, you should never provide an explaination as to why you have made a particular decision. I learnt a similar lesson in leadership development - sometimes, an unpopular decision should be presented without explanation in order to avoid challenge and debate which ultimately destabilises the hierarchy.

MN is not a democracy. We can, if we want to, vote with our keyboards, log out or cancel our membership.

justine does not need the agreement or consensus of site members. It is worth considering what her motive is for seeking it.

Justine please refrain from the snide suggestions that the only reason we're pissed off about PL being invited to attend is because they're trans. You've been given names of other trans people who would be more suitable. This has got nothing to do with PL being trans. Please tell us how they've campaigned for good. Please. We'd love to know