Why do girls let the boys get away with it?

[Weneedarevolution]

My DS is doing A levels. In geography they have been put in a group of boys and girls - 5 students I think. They have to complete a project. The girls have organised and allocated th work, my DS has minimal work to do. He is GOOD at geography his input would help the girls. He is quite happy to let this happen as he can benefit from their efforts while getting on with other work.

His argument is that if they had asked him he would have gladly helped but they organised it and he just agreed. I really believe if the girls asked he and his friends would do the work to a high standard.

This has happened through out his school career, he and his friends almost expect it now.

So who is to blame the girls for not asking or the boys for letting it happen?

If someone acted in a racist way I would say something.
If someone acted in a homophobic way I would say something.
The boys are acting in a sexist way but no one needs to say anything because the boys might be mean to them.

The girls are not responsible for the boys behaviour but I am puzzled as to why they put up with it. I wouldn't, didn't, don't. Is it really unacceptable to challenge sexism in schools these days?

I know so many women who do all the house work because nagging their partners for more hours than it would take to do it themselves isn't worth it.

Why is your son so lazy? Would you do nothing if your husband or colleagues "let" you get away it?

Did you let him get away with being such an entitled little chauvinist or did you tell him off?

Hamster read the thread.

I haven't read the full thread but perhaps the girls have learnt from their parents. How many women have to keep chasing up their husbands to do things? Perhaps the girls see the boys in this light and just gave them a simple job that doesn't really matter if it isn't completed. The boys attitude would somewhat support this theory.

You really can't think of any reasons? And many students wouldn't challenge racist/homophobic stuff directly. It takes a fair amount of confidence to do that, particularly if the behaviour being challenged is seen to be tolerated.

The specific girls in this situation might not have felt confident enough, or felt it was too much hassle, etc etc. You can't influence those girls as you're not their parent or teacher. You can influence your son, and you can feed back to the teacher. It would be great if the girls could be encouraged to be more assertive, something the school could look into if you raise it perhaps.

Yes I know the reasons, but 3 girls, 2 boys in a group. Polite, middle class A level group, both boys NOT alpha males. And no one can say anything?

I think/hope DS would tackle racist/homophobic behaviour and that is one of the reasons why he thinks I'm overreacting. If it is an issue surely the girls would address it?

Is it really unacceptable to challenge sexism in schools these days?

I'd say of racism, homophobia and sexism, sexism is least likely to be challenged in general everywhere. And that's because so many women are people pleasers and raised to be from birth - as we see from the example in your OP. A lot of young women will immediately stamp on racism and homophobia, but laugh along with casual sexism to show they're not 'uptight'.

He would tackle racist and homophobic behaviour from others... Is he white and straight?

By racist, is he thinking of insults?

What if the group was 3 Asians, 2 Caucasians and the work pattern was the same? Would he challenge it then?

Yonic depends on how much work he had to do

I think Repent has it. No one sees it as an issue apart from me.

Because if he is white and straight, he is presumably thinking about himself challenging the behaviour of another white and/or straight person.

Here, it is his behaviour, and he is what? Presuming if it was terrible the other boy in the group would call it out just as he'd call out racism?

Of course people see it as an issue! But you are in a position to influence your son, not those girls. The one thing you could do is raise the issue of sexist group dynamics to the school and lobby for them to introduce some work on this area.

Speak

I think OP meant the teacher and the group in question didn't see it as an issue.

However, as she doesn't want to bother the teacher with it, it's not clear how she knows this.

I still have to say, as someone who has tutored and mentored team development and team working for many years that the single biggest mistake made repetitively in teamwork. INCLUDING in graduate assessment centres is that the quieter, more seemingly uninvolved participants are the least engaged, least invested and leadt capable. I was forever coaching people in leadership roles to silence the talkers and ask for input from the quiet members or even work at strategies to get their input away from the group, and to focus on the significance of two or three word summaries from them and expand them. The LAST thing i would coach is encouraging introverts, observers, analysts and strategists to be called, or label themselves as 'lazy'. I would often explain at length how listening is as important an engagement as talking and illustrate often how talkers miss whats happening, even what they are actually saying, in the effort to be dominant. Trump is a great example.

One of the dangers of feminist parenting is to see dominance and leadership as the holy grail of social or work interactions. Good management and good femiinism is about much deeoer understanding in my view. Making the girls realise your DSs (godlike!) ability in the subject without them excluding him will be extremely difficult.

Be careful you arent teaching him to dumb down and hide himself just to get along.

ahem that should be in assuming the least involved...

I've seen graduate assessment people say that candidates don't understand whats going on, only to quiely ask the supposed uninvolved person and get detail and strategy. (weird, as the assessors tgemelves are involved observers!)

"One of the dangers of feminist parenting is to see dominance and leadership as the holy grail of social or work interactions." what makes you say this?

Well its the danger of any parenting actually, as its what leads to bullying, and obsession with 'being in charge'.

There are many things to sift into as a person and it should be 'what you are good at and want to be' but it too often focuses on one thin idea of power.

That's very interesting scary.

However, not sure how it maps here, the boy in question has said he's been given less work. I don't think that about whether or not he's an introvert or parented by a feminist, is it?

Which leads us to a whole other thread on how introverts aren't valued, especially introverted men. Very interesting Scary.

I wonder if having an extrovert, outspoken, feminist mother has done the poor lad no end of harm

I knew as I pressed post that you would pick up on that, Lass.

It is a behaviour I have seen, as have others I have talked to, as have people on this thread. That better?

No , not really- unless you really and truly have never encountered lazy, manipulative and untrustworthy and generally poor female work colleagues also.

Would you have a special name for a particularly manipulative woman who ignored female colleague unless she wanted a favour; flirted and played up to the older men and when it didn't work made up completely unfounded allegations of sexual harassment when challenged about the poor quality of her work?

Lass - you really hate women don't you!

I don't think Lass hates women as such, amy. But she would like it if we were all a lot more like her, and gave up the wilder extremes of our feminism, which she doesn't find very sensible or practical.

Lass, in my working career I have met far, far more lazy manchildren than I have manipulative women. Please do feel free to tell me that is probably a result of my deep and abiding hatred for men. It won't be true, but it might cut to the chase of this debate

I think you may find more unsatisfactory male colleagues because you are looking out for them and turning a blind eye or excusing unsatisfactory female colleagues. Poor behaviour by a male worker is symptomatic of poor behaviour by male workers as a class- a poor female worker is just that - an individual unsatisfactory worker.

In my experience lazy and unproductive workers are not divided by sex.

The laziest worker in my department at the moment is a woman. She works in a team of 3. One of them is brilliant but works part time and when she isn't there Ms Lazy drags the third Ms Average down to Ms Lazy 's level.

Is there a neat phrase the equivalent of "man-child" to describe that conduct or because they are all women it's just the dynamic of 3 individuals?

Generally speaking I think that lazy people are more common than manipulative ones. Or rather lazy behaviour is more common than manipulative behaviour. Manipulative behaviour probably stands out more though.

Anyway I'm a mother of a boy the same age as the OP and my dd is a year younger. My ds seems to enjoy group work, seeing it as an opportunity to help other people (he is currently a high achiever although that hasn't always been the case) and to reinforce his own learning. He is very extrovert and probably a bit dominant. The only issues he reports is that his friends aren't confident enough which he finds difficult to understand.

dd on the other hand really doesn't like group work. She is a perfectionist introvert and she finds it stressful when other people don't pull their weight, or when she worries that they might not pull their weight. She likes to take charge because it gives her a feeling of control although really she much prefers to work alone, even if it means much more work. She often complains about group projects when people don't deliver or when her plans are otherwise thwarted.

dh and I have tried to bring them up in the same way, but they are quite different characters and of course they both pick up on the messages the world gives them. I doubt it's a coincidence that dd is a people pleaser and ds is assertive.

nooka ... I think I'm your daughter!

On the men v. women issue, I have noticed both. In my workplace, my take on it is that 'the system' generally sees men and their work / careers as more important than those of women, and women tend to get lumped with the kinds of tasks that take a lot of work but don't really allow one to shine. Men also tend to get away with a lot more because hey, boys will be boys.

I currently work with one of the laziest people I have ever encountered and yes, she is a woman. She manipulates men (and many women) by a variety of tactics including by flirting, mothering and generally sucking up (can I say 'sucking dick?). The men in power protect her.

Thing is, I don't see this as about her as an individual. I see a bigger systemic issue where men expect this from women and reward this behaviour because it pleases them.

I am not thought of so well because I don't perform femininity at all well. Instead of playing to egos to get what I want I simply ask for it.

My conclusion is that men and women behave in particular ways because of conditioning and gender roles under a patriarchal umbrella in which such behaviour is conditioned and rewarded accordingly.

The OP asks an interesting question, I think, and this is how we stop the conditioning before it starts.