Why do girls let the boys get away with it?

[Weneedarevolution]

My DS is doing A levels. In geography they have been put in a group of boys and girls - 5 students I think. They have to complete a project. The girls have organised and allocated th work, my DS has minimal work to do. He is GOOD at geography his input would help the girls. He is quite happy to let this happen as he can benefit from their efforts while getting on with other work.

His argument is that if they had asked him he would have gladly helped but they organised it and he just agreed. I really believe if the girls asked he and his friends would do the work to a high standard.

This has happened through out his school career, he and his friends almost expect it now.

So who is to blame the girls for not asking or the boys for letting it happen?

You've never met a man who struggled to delegate?

I have.

Ain't anecdata grand?

"I may well raise it with the teachers but I don't want to be seen as telling them their job. Teachers get enough crap"

But.... It is their job. And your job. And your DH's job. And most of all, your DS's job.

Do you know whose job it isn't?

The girls in the group!

Not RTFT so apologies if someone has already made this extremely obvious point, but if the genders in the OP were flipped the opposite way around and the boys had organised the work and not given the girls their fair share, I have no doubt at all that everyone would be saying it was a classic example of male privilege excluding women. But because it's the boys being excluded by the girls it's twisted round to become the boys' fault? Geez. Talk about double standards.

It's not the OP's son's fault at all. Are people really saying he should push himself forward and do the work even after it's been made very clear to him that his contribution isn't wanted? If he actually did that he would no doubt be accused of mansplaining.

Yeah, you should probably RTFT, Orchid.

He could have said 'I can contribute to this, I'm really good at this.'

Then the girls could have said yay or nay.

They don't have to shake him down to make their project better, because he couldn't be bothered, it didn't count towards his grade blah blah.

i just want to say that while I agree with the Buffy/amy combo, I also want to say to the OP that I admire your tenacity in this thread - and that I as a feminist have really struggled to raise my son through those later teen years, it is really really hard when at this age they naturally want to rebel against their parents; they have had 16 years of exposure to misogyny from every social angle; they are finding out what being a man is going to be like and exploring what kind of man they are going to be. It is fucking hard.

My DS would have behaved very similarly, is my guess. But unlike yours, he wouldn't have the trusting relationship yours does with you, to tell me. So I think you are fighting a lonely struggle and it is understandable to want some other women to take some of the strain of pushing back on your son. But those other women in this instance, are girls of 16, few of whom have the courage at that age to stand up against the misogyny they have imbibed.

My DS has a DSis, his twin, and while I am proud as buggery of her feminist understanding, sense of her value as an equal person, her general all round confidence and pazzazz as a woman, I KNOW that my very very DS has struggled with the difficult challenge that grown men struggle with, of what it is to be a man around feminist women. Give your lad a lot of love and credit for talking to you about this, for owning his own shit (in all senses!) and for discussing gender like this with you. No he hasn't worked it all out yet, it'll be years before he does probably - and that will only come with the input of many many strong articulate women. The best you can hope for is that in 10 years he'll say to you, what a knob I was when I was 16, expecting girls at school to tell me what to do.

You said that this was not an assessment project. It is a teamwork project, with each member expected to contribute equally to the project.

Your DS clearly recognises that he is doing less than his fair share of the project work.

It seems that he is missing the point of the exercise. It is not about the project itself, because that is not being assessed. It is about learning how to work as part of a team. How to assess, scope and delegate. How to negotiate. How to get along effectively with your colleagues. How to garner respect.

These are valuable 'soft' skills. Learning them will make him a better employee, employer, friend and partner, and will in the long game, make his life easier and more pleasant. He is currently exchanging short-term gain for long-term pain.

Are people really saying he should push himself forward and do the work

No we are saying he should push himself forward and OFFER/ to contribute his fair share. Just as we say the same to our daughters.

Group work is a really great opportunity for learning. OP should be focusing on what her son can learn about his working style, have him reflect on this and learn from it.

But buckingin why is it harder for your son? Is it really easier for your daughter?

DS has struggled with the difficult challenge that grown men struggle with, of what it is to be a man around feminist women.

My father, my husband, and my son don't have this "difficult challenge". They each of them knew exactly what it was to be a man.

What is this struggle???

*DS has struggled with the difficult challenge that grown men struggle with, of what it is to be a man around feminist women.

My father, my husband, and my son don't have this "difficult challenge". They each of them knew exactly what it was to be a man.

What is this struggle???*

And in case you think I'm being flip. My dad was born in 1926. My mum in 1927. She didn't work after they married (she was fired as soon as she married because she was married). She was a SAHM, She was also a feminist. He loved her and lived with her happily without struggle.

Ditto my husband (married to a feminist)

Ditto my brother in law. (sister's husband - married to a feminist)

Ditto my brothers in law (husband's brothers - all married to feminists)

Ditto my 20 year old son. Who would be the quiet less contributing one in a group - not because he struggles with "feminist women" but because he is an introvert who is inclined to do what he is told. We've helped him to work on that - because we see it as his issue to deal with - not some challenge presented to him by "feminist women"

Is there a struggle I haven't heard about??

The boys have learned that the world rewards them for exploiting women. And that the women themselves will be blamed for not preventing males from exploiting them

Alternatively there is a group of 5 people one of whom is a lazy freeloader hanging on the other's tails. My own experience of being in teams and managing teams is the people playing the "girls' role" are as likely to be men as women and the same for the "boys' role".

Of course"anecdote isn't data" will be the response - unless of course anecdote,which is all that we have here, fits with the view of women as perpetually exploited victims.

The question the OP should be asking is not why the girls let this happen but why her son is tailcoating other's work.

Oh for goodness sake, if you took gender out of it, then what? Some group members have allocated tasks in a way that person X thinks is unfair

Person X says nothing as he can get away with doing less, but acts hard done by that group is not utilising his skills outside the situation

Person X makes suggestions about where he can contribute and has an open discussion.

Surely it is possible to initiate discussion without being controlling? If your son is not willing to do that, then he should speak to teacher.

That apart, the only reason I can think of why men might struggle to know what to do/say etc with a feminist is because they don't see her as just another autonomous human being who wants to be treated as such, but somehow see it as an attack on them personally, which undermines them as men. Many men DO struggle with women who do not act subservient to them; but that is hardly the woman's fault. Society suggests we have equality but many social norms contradict that. Women have to negotiate that every day. Thus, surely decent men should also try to.

Person x is quite happy with the small amount of work allocated to him. Person x is not acting hard done by. Person x can't believe his luck. Person x is happy the girls are taking the lead. Person x wants the girls to take the lead. Person x would happily vote for the girls!

Person x's mother thinks there is some wider gender issues at play and has challenged him. This is an issue in education as mention by a pp. This is not just my son, it is every boy in the class. It is YOUR son.

My DS is an introvert. Happy to let others take control. He likes strong women. In this case I think he is using this as an excuse to get away with doing less work. I could make excuses for him, I want him challenged.

I do think you're getting a bit of a rough time here, OP - the way you had phrased it originally might have contributed to that, but I also wonder if it just touches a nerve for all the women here who've had men freeload off their work, slack, take advantage and never think twice about it.

It certainly touched a nerve for me, it shot me straight back to a training course I was on last year, where I had to misfortune to be paired for a project with a lazy, entitled manchild. He didn't bother to listen to instructions, he expected me to have done it, he brought nothing to the task, he checked his facebook and texted his friends in the allocated task time. Then finally he blew up at me because I hadn't explained part of the task clearly enough - that the instructor had explained two or three times in the introduction - and started screaming at me.

The instructor took me aside and explained that Jamie (let's call him Jamie, that was his name), just needed a bit of gentle encouragement. I told the instructor in no uncertain terms that the encouragement would be coming from him and not from me, and that I would be completing the task alone. He was most put out. Then Jamie decided that I didn't want to work with him because I was homophobic. I was speechless (I am not, and never have been homophobic).

It's hard to know what to say to make boys buck a cultural trend. They have to want to do it, because it's fair, but how can you inculcate that?

*Fresh" It touches a raw nerve with me as well hence thread. I wonder about all the mothers of sons who are happy to point out my son is lazy (in this instance he is) while having no idea that their little prince is doing the same.

When you stood up and told the instructor you would complete the task alone I bet you felt great. Pissed off you had been put in that position but confident enough to not take any crap. Well done you.

Caveat - I know it is not the responsibility of the girls.

But wouldn't it be brilliant if their teacher could encourage the girls to manage the team by challenging this behaviour? Wouldn't it be good for these girls to experience this small victory? Wouldn't this be assertiveness training? Wouldn't this give them confidence the next time this happens to them?
This would be entirely at the expense of my DS. I'd be OK with that.

But op, you've said you don't want to talk to the teacher as teacher is busy enough

If your DS is quite happy with this, then I revert to my original point that you cannot make him 'get it'. In my experience, you are banging your head on a brick wall trying to get a man who is invested in his privilege to 'get it' if it means putting himself out.

All you can do is set your own boundaries.

I asked my DD how she would organise a task in geography and she said it depended what it was, what people were good at and how the group worked together. Her answer was longer, but boys/girls didn't come into it. Until asked, when she said some of the boys in her class would not bother, so she would probably not rely on them.

This sounds awfully like;

• woman does all the childcare / housework
• man does nothing or only what he is asked to do
• he is not proactive
• woman says 'why don't you do more' (if she says anything at all)
• man says you never ask me!

Now I think I know where it comes from...

Yes it does sound like that. As I have said many times, this is absolutely not what is modeled in our house. DP does more than half the housework. The DC join in with house work. DS cleans the toilet.

DS would not want his wife to change her name, he would be mortified if she was 'given away', he supports feminism, he actually has the T shirt and he wears it!

If boys like this, behave in this way in class how should it be addressed? Could the girls be given the skills to confront it? Skills that would be invaluable in life.

Or is it easier to say lazy, entitled men with indulgent mothers. I think I am part of the solution. I think and I hope I am addressing the issue. I think lots of mothers of sons are deep in denial.

Of course it would be great to give girls more skills and assertiveness. But, the bigger and more important issue is addressing the behaviour of boys and men. Because all the skills and assertiveness in the world are no good if the people you're using them on don't care about changing their ways!

You don't have to solve all of society's problems with this on your own. You and your DP are responsible for one little part which is your son. Just keep chipping away at his behaviour and thought processes. It's easy to be a theoretical feminist ally, but a lot harder to actually give up your privileges. Challenge the teachers/school if you see casual sexism. Any small steps will help.

It certainly touched a nerve for me, it shot me straight back to a training course I was on last year, where I had to misfortune to be paired for a project with a lazy, entitled manchild

How would you have described a lazy female colleague? Or do they not exist?

Thanks for that bucking it kind of sums it up.
He knows he is wrong but can't quite be arsed to stop watching YouTube and do the work.

A levels aren't compulsory. I'd tell your son he'd be doing the work for his own benefit.

I was borderline between two grades for one of my A level subjects & needed the higher grade to ensure my place at uni. So I made sure I did all the assignments & revision. I didn't care what the others were doing.

You said earlier that these girls are around the C/D mark and your son is more on course for an A. They've obviously taken responsibility for their education to achieve the best they can. Your son needs to do the same. If he wants an A he'll have to work for it & it's good preparation for uni where you need to be self motivated.

You said earlier that these girls are around the C/D mark and your son is more on course for an A. They've obviously taken responsibility for their education to achieve the best they can. Your son needs to do the same.

It sounds like he's doing that if he's on for an A, in fairness. Good exam grades don't fall out of the sky.