Glamour Magazine allows transwoman to redefine feminism

[MrsJamin]

Call yourself a feminist? Our transgender columnist Juno Dawson's here to see if you really pass the test

And calls women who don't "TERFs". Thanks, Glamour and Jo Elvin, thanks a lot.

Buffy

Buffy I hear what you say. There's sometimes a measure of letting rip in what we are so often forbidden to say elsewhere, but I do agree that there's also a limit to what is both kind (even to people who are doing us harm) and what is politically expedient. I will keep this in mind when I post again.

I wanted to second what ArcheryAnnie said ^ I was a bit surprised to check in on my way home & find a rather heated run of posts after my cardi quip this morning. I totally understand the frustration but getting "frothy" just gives the TRAs ammo for screenshots. I thought the link someone posted to the transcritical health professionals' blog where a gay man had posted his take on the TRA agenda was really interesting. He wrote about how the gay rights agenda was different because it was just & did not encroach on others' rights. I see feminism the same way in this issue. We just need to keep stating our concerns in a clear, unambiguous and measured way. We have just cause. Venting when frustrated is understandable, but this is not a private space.

I'm not clicking. My nerves can't take it.

Still Spartacus.

Datun I totally get that! And I understand the frustration, and occasionally the need to let rip. Our language is being policed all the time, particularly on this issue. But what Buffy said struck a chord with me, and while I can't promise always to be measured in what I say, I'll keep it in mind nonetheless.

The comments under the Independent article don't exactly warm the cockles though.

True, Charlie.

Yes, lots of sucking up to "LanaP"

Tweeted by Juno just now:

Women need safe spaces. Trans women pose no threat to those safe spaces. To say otherwise is transphobia.

It makes my blood boil, this shutting down of womens' concerns. 'Agree with me, or you are a bigot! '

Gah, it makes me want to scream! I hope to god this bollocks has burnt itself out by the time my daughter reaches womanhood.

The comments under the Independent article don't exactly warm the cockles though

Most UK women still don't have a clue what is being done behind their backs. Similar articles in the US - where trans issues have a much higher profile due to the bathroom law debate - attract comments that are overwhelmingly pro-Spartacus.

CaptainsCat dont argue with him or he will block you from Twitter!!

Sorry but this guy is an idiot. I have no objection to a real transwoman sharing my space but if any guy can slip on a frock and say that he now identifies as a woman then they can fuck right off.

captain - or anyone else. I'm not on Twitter, but would it be possible to post some of the many links that show transwomen definitely have attacked women?

BratFarrar but how would you define a "real transwoman"?

I've been knocking around the LGBT+ community for a long time (though it wasn't called that then) and the people who for years I saw as my political siblings, and who I would have accepted as what is now called trans, neither denied their own maleness nor tried to push into women's spaces*, so "sharing my space" did not arise as an issue. But now when just saying so makes you trans, what is "real"?

*exception: gay clubs, where the women's loos were always full of people who cheerfully described themselves as "trannys" (whether that means they thought of themselves as drag queens or trans people I don't know) using the mirrors and chatting, but since it was clear to all concerned they had no sexual interest in women, it wasn't an issue for the lesbians there. Now the exact same scenario would make me fear for my safety, and mistrust every male-bodied person in those loos, and I would not be able to rely on all male-bodied people present having no sexual interest in women - far from it.

Somebody defined it really well upthread...
I knew somebody would pick me up on that...

I suppose I mean an 'old style' trans woman, ie somebody who was a feminine gay man who then went the whole op route and then lived as a woman.

Now these days, we have jokers with dicks and beards telling us they identify as women, and that we are TERFs who can move over! Who was that one Ada Wells? who was running for NUS women's officer? with a beard and a penis? I am sorry it is a fucking joke.

Obviously I do understand that not everybody would agree with this differentiation.

Well, I think - as women - we can all agree on one thing: sometimes biology fucks us over. Those of us who can't get pregnant - less of a woman? Those of us who need mastectomies - less of a woman? Those of us (including me) on HRT - less womanly? I think I'm just one more woman who was royally fucked over by biology...

Fuck. That. Shit.

I cannot believe how angry reading that has made me, I really really wish I hadn't read it.

There are a couple of examples cited in the Indie article Datun. And also see here: www.dailywire.com/news/5190/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo#

If you google voyeurism in mixed changing though, there is about a prosecution a month. It's depressingly common.

I don't believe most transwomen want to use the women's toilets to assault women, I think it is largely about validation. But I do believe that self-identification makes it very easy to gain access to women-only spaces specifically to assault women.

If the Independent is bandying about terms like TERF and starring out f*k and c*t willy nilly then maybe this madness is making people sit up.

The transwomen who keep their tackle and aggressively demand access to women's spaces are starting to shoot themselves in their Louboutin clad feet.

*Tweeted by Juno just now:

Women need safe spaces. Trans women pose no threat to those safe spaces. To say otherwise is transphobia.*

Surely someone could tweet back links to where trans women have assaulted women and committed acts of voyeurism? And a selection of the hundreds of incidents of voyeurism and assault against women which occur yearly, which will be facilitated by allowing anyone who self identifies as a woman access to female spaces.

When I looked earlier there were actually some decent comments on the Indy article - one trans person merailing but plenty of people saying "no way to tell who is trans though, so no" which was heartening. Hopefully it hasn't taken a turn for the worse

As i've said before, googling trans woman attacked in men's bathroom, brings up no answers.

Datun, the site TERF is a Slur has an amazing and revolting load of online attacks by TRAs. It doesn't work too well on a phone, better browsed on a bigger screen, though you can view it on a little one if you're patient.

Just took a wander through twitter. Juno really has thrown all their toys out of the (presumably pink) pram, and I remain shocked that Glamour actually employ Kat to be in charge of their social media as she is utterly unprofessional (and not just in response to this.)

I don't think it is helpful to insinuate that transwomen don't face danger in male bathrooms (and prisons etc) They do and it needs to be addressed.

We don't need to try and disprove the claims, we just need to hold steady in our resolve that opening up female spaces is not an adequate solution.

I agree BenLinus

I agree BenLinus, I've said the same previously - if TW face violence from men then that is awful, and wrong and an example of male entitlement and male violence. But the solution to that is to tackle that entrenched male violence not to come and demonstrate that same male entitlement by imposing on women's safe spaces.

Campaign for your own safe space, or campaign to make the space you have a safe one. But stop trying to make our safe spaces unsafe because right now we have (or are heading for) the worst of all worlds - sex segregation on the face of it which decent and respectful men will abide by, but segregation which is easily ignored and impossible to enforce and so will be abused by violent and aggressive men.

I would genuinely rather have full blown (appropriately designed) fully unisex facilities than that - at least then there would be more people going in and out and the presence of decent, non abusive men might actually offer some degree of protection. I appreciate all the arguments about abuse survivors and so on, and I'm not disputing any of those - just saying I would prefer actual unisex to bonkers dangerous half way house.

I think with the current state of affairs it is only a matter of time before we see quite large numbers of abusive men taking advantage of this unenforceability. I know it is already happening but I mean more widespread - at the moment not that many people are aware, relatively.

hazey (I think)

Well, I think - as women - we can all agree on one thing: sometimes biology fucks us over. Those of us who can't get pregnant - less of a woman? Those of us who need mastectomies - less of a woman? Those of us (including me) on HRT - less womanly? I think I'm just one more woman who was royally fucked over by biology...

That really pisses me off too. He can't get pregnant because he's a MAN. NO woman thinks someone who's had a mastectomy is less of a woman for fucks sake. Likewise HRT or menopause or infertility or any of the things that Juno so clearly thinks doesn't align with his sexualised Barbie doll view of HIMSELF.

datun - I read it that he was saying that biology fucked him over because he should have been born in a woman's body rather than a man's body. (Though of course he would argue that he has a woman's body, because he is a woman ergo his body is female, penis and all )

Perhaps his argument is that some women get born with a dodgy womb, some women get born with a predisposition to breast cancer, he got born with a penis where his vagina should have been?

I dunno, it's all crap isn't it? And offensive to women who have suffered infertility, cancer and a difficult menopause.