Glamour Magazine allows transwoman to redefine feminism

[MrsJamin]

Call yourself a feminist? Our transgender columnist Juno Dawson's here to see if you really pass the test

And calls women who don't "TERFs". Thanks, Glamour and Jo Elvin, thanks a lot.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

I've not heard or seen that on MN either tbh. Possibly "if it's got a Penis it's a bloke"

That said - whilst pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing are not universal experiences of females some of the impacts occur whether you have or plan to have children ; being ruled out for promotion because you're at prime "sprogging up" age, not getting considered for jobs because assumptions are made based on age and sex...

[Twogoats]

Has anyone had replies for the Glamour editor yet?

[andintothefire]

Empress - that's my (clumsily expressed point). It's ridiculous to start defining women by individual experience, look or sound. I don't know anybody who would say that "if somebody looks and sounds like a bloke, they are a bloke". Neither do I know anybody who would say that women who don't have children aren't really women. Gender isn't defined like that. It seemed to me to be a pointlessly reductive and deliberately inflammatory statement.

For all the supposed "trans bashing" on mumsnet, that isn't a statement that I have ever heard.

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

If it looks and sounds like a bloke, and has never faced the problems that having children bring as a woman, it is not a woman.

Not all women can have / choose to have children though. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[andintothefire]

If it looks and sounds like a bloke, and has never faced the problems that having children bring as a woman, it is not a woman.

[andintothefire]

Sadly, there are probably women reading this right now who are like, "If it looks and sounds like a bloke, it's a bloke. If it's got a penis, it's a bloke."

Sadly? Seriously?

[DeliciousIrony]

This person is telling me what a good feminist is, on the basis that they are a woman because...they have been taking oestrogen for 3 months? And the 'feels' of course

[TheCompanyOfCats]

I'm just re-animating this near-zombie thread to show you all the advert that's just come up as I was browsing MN!

[shinynewusername]

Link here.

All the popular comments are now gender critical ones.

[WelshMoth]

The comments under the Independent article don't exactly warm the cockles though

Can someone re post a link? Can't seem to find it.

#reachingpeaktrans

[Mozfan1]

😅

Did come with a nice nail varnish though so swings and roundabouts I guess

[ErrolTheDragon]

Just roll it up and tap his nose with it a bit. He wasn't to know, just an innocent bystander.

[Mozfan1]

Trying to be nice my husband bought me the latest copy of glamour

Should I LTB?

[ErrolTheDragon]

It's a bit of a catch-22 because 'non-trans' makes it sound like trans is the common state. (I wouldn't want to be referred to either as 'cis' or as a 'non-trans female' tbh ... 'woman' has worked well enough for over 5 decades.) In that context though, just 'males' would probably have worked.

[SomeDyke]

"please don't use the word cis-male, male is male."
I know, I was just trying to make a distinction between males who present/identify as women/female, and males who don't. And ironically ended-up using the hated cis instead of non-trans................I should have used non-trans, the hated terminology has wormed it's way into my brain!

The only little point being that males who don't present as or identify as anything in particular don't give a fig, because it makes no damn difference to them at all! Why should they care? Mainly, seems they don't, or even notice, or just wonder why those silly laydees keep making such a fuss!

[MrsJamin]

SomeDyke please don't use the word cis-male, male is male.

[SomeDyke]

I work in male-dominated old university buildings, where a simple count the ladies, count the gents calculation shows that chaps have more loos than us laydees for starters. And I bet that any calls for the introduction of genderless single loos would just mean someone replacing the sign on the front of the single enclosed womens loos that we do have. And as happened in Toronto, cis-males wouldn't be disadvantaged one little bit, they'd just have more places to piss! As they already have in newer buildings where some of the loos are designated as gender-neutral (but women don't use them cos they stink and we all know men can't aim!).

[SomeDyke]

Yes, still mixed sex/single gender. But at least shows how the non-trans males at least mess it up, and naive applications of unisex washrooms just make more problems than they solve (actually, I don't think they would have solved any here, since I imagine blokes who would try to photograph a woman showering wouldn't have any qualms about trying it with a transwoman as well.)

Plus I'd like to see the usage of the 'gender-neutral' facilities. I'd expect given the history that they'd end up as cis-male only, hence as usual, cis-males wouldn't be disadvantaged by this stupidity one little teeny bit!

Well, they got some of the males out of the womens washroom, they just need to get the rest out...................

[JedRambosteen]

SomeDyke From your link:

Melinda Scott, dean of students at University College, told campus newspaper The Varsity that some washrooms in the college’s residences will now be separated by gender for “those who identify as men and those who identify as women.”

“At the same time, there remains at least one gender-neutral washroom per floor and per house,” Scott said.

“The purpose of this temporary measure is to provide a safe space for the women who have been directly impacted by these events and other students who may feel more comfortable in a single-gender washroom in the wake of these incidents.”

So still mixed sex showering then...

[SomeDyke]

Having unisex shower spaces doesn't solve the problem though, as they discovered at the University of Toronto:

www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-bathrooms-voyeurism_n_8253970.html

It really does seem to be, if transwomen feel safer, that is the preferred solution, even if all of us women have to be a little less safe in order to accommodate that. The only people not disadvantaged one little bit over any of this (and indeed in the U of T case some gained additional 'opportunities') are the menz. What a surprise!

[Stuffofawesome]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2775504-Why-is-Paris-Lees-speaking-at-Mumsnet-and-are-MN-seeking-Spartacus-tees?pg=1

[Twogoats]

The independent article is fantastic! A very good, approachable, response.

[SomeDyke]

The writing of Anne Lawrence (an autogynephilic transsexual) is interesting:

annelawrence.com/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

who has also published a book 'Men Trapped in Mens Bodies'. The 'I've got a ladybrain' narrative isn't universal.

And a very interesting link to that survey article from elsewhere (sorry, can't find it at the moment, and I'll admit I gave it only a quick skim), but which seemed to be saying that rather than the simple, male brain/bits of brain - female brain/bits of brain, with trans somewhere in the middle, instead it seemed to be saying trans was not just in between, but distinct. Whether this is innate or neuroplasticity, it definitely is more complicated than the simple ladybrain arguments.

Ah, found it!
Archives of Sexual Behavior
October 2016, Volume 45, Issue 7, pp 1615–1648
A Review of the Status of Brain Structure Research in Transsexualism

One quibble I have with this article, it compares homosexual M2T and homosexual F2T to heterosexual males and females. So in some sense you are seeing a double effect when you make that comparison -- the possible difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals, and a possible difference between homosexuals and transitioners (who by that want to be seen as heterosexual!). Add in the usual small sample sizes and lack of statistical significance in some cases.............

[Datun]

Yes, Stats, it might well reduce the arousal. But, to me, it's the most compelling argument for sex segregation. I had a rather eye-popping half hour, when I first googled AGP. Largely to do with the assertion that ALL women get turned on by their clothes and the fact that it's basically a 'humiliation' fetish. It's not that they necessarily see women in general as 'victims', but the idea of themselves as victims is the turn on.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

I'd imagine unisex loos would reduce the turn on for agp compared to the current situation where they do have access to woman's spaces though? That's the thing, at the moment they have access and we still have no idea unless we've seen who goes in to the neighbouring cubicle.