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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ched Evans verdict

989 replies

FreshwaterSelkie · 14/10/2016 16:12

to continue the discussion as the previous thread closed.

OP posts:
BeyondPolkadots · 15/10/2016 09:59

What are the headlines, I had a look but couldn't find them?

GiveMeRitz · 15/10/2016 10:13

Shit the end of the world is nigh!! I agree with a headline in the Sun…

Trying to talk reasonably about this case with good/decent men is scary, so far they (IME) have all displayed an innate belief/assumption that it's 'easy' for women to lie about rape. That women will lie after regrettable sex.

And these are good men, all were disgusted by this case, that her sexual history was brought in, agree that Ched is scum…but still have absorbed the belief that (a) it's 'easy' to get someone charged with rape (b) that a rape charge 'hurts' a man life in spite/despite evidence to the contrary.

the world is a darker place

BeyondPolkadots · 15/10/2016 10:39

Another reason this will hurt victims of rape...
The people reading, absorbing, then commenting on this are future jurors. They have seen that this is "not Rape Rape" and will carry that forward.

FirstShinyRobe · 15/10/2016 10:43

I've found 2 threads that I referred to earlier which talk about rapists defining consent.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a2283756-The-power-to-define-rape

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1435548-Consent-a-problematic-concept-if-ever-I-saw-one

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/10/2016 12:19

I agree ... It is appalling. I also just tried to talk with a reasonable man about it, and he didn't get it either. The world is indeed a darker place.

AyeAmarok · 15/10/2016 12:45

I've read and listened to various discussions this morning of barrister complaining that women's groups are saying this sets a precedent and will stop victims coming forward. They say this doesn't set any legal precedent, that this was a "very exceptional case" where the evidence of her sexual history was relevant.

But it does set a precedent, even if not a legal one. It makes it so, so much easier for men to get away with raping extremely drunk women. That's the precedent I think people who are outraged are referring to.

Now, all a rapist needs to do is see a woman who has fallen over from drink and is acting "vacant", start having sex with her without even speaking to her, and then say that she said something that resembles something that the woman may have said during (consensual) sexual intercourse with someone else (whom you've bribed with 50k, incidentally).

I have said "go harder" various times while having sex, with various people. So now, if I'm raped, and he says I said that, and I have no memory either through alcohol or a date rape drug or I'm asleep, they just need to speak to any of my exes and bingo: reasonable doubt. A jury must now concede that you had "reasonable belief of consent", which is a defence to rape. Even if you could just be making up that the phrase was said.

And that's why this verdict is so dangerous for all past and future victims of rape.

BeyondPolkadots · 15/10/2016 12:52

Surely the "harder" phrase, and preferring sex from behind are about as rare as finding some hay in a haystack?

venusinscorpio · 15/10/2016 12:58

Totally agree AyeAmarok, and I also disagree with that barrister in terms of the societal impact.

11122aa · 15/10/2016 13:07

Steve Brokstein has chirped up. He said at best she forgot she didn't consent at worse she is a lying whore. Yes he used that word.

Memoires · 15/10/2016 13:15

GivemeRitz that's what I'm discovering, too. Even my brother, whom I'd always believed was one of the most decent men alive, thinks that women prefer to shout rape than to face their regretted choices of the night before. Sad

If even decent men believe that making a false accusation is easy, what do we do? It has to be made very very clear how hard it is to bring an accusation even to the point of reporting.

MoreKopparbergthanKrug · 15/10/2016 13:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Xenophile · 15/10/2016 13:25

11122aa, Brookstein is a bear of very little brain and even less talent. I always wonder about men who protest in the way he has about how rape isn't rape, and I usually come to the fairly logical conclusion that it's because they've done the same or similar themselves.

GiveMeRitz · 15/10/2016 13:58

MoreKopp, exactly!

I mean if her 'normal' enjoying consensual sex comment was--oh fiery wild stallion fill my frozen womb with your burning love, in Latin, then maybe and still only maybe would it be relevant.

But fuck me harder & doggy style, I place money on a couple saying doing that right now. Hardly unique.

madein1995 · 15/10/2016 13:58

I'm a mixture of sad and angry right now. I'm furious that the witnesses were in effect paid off, and even more angry that their evidence about her sex life, which they had been paid to give, helped his case. I have very little trust in the criminal justice system right now. I work with victims of dv and sexual abuse and I'm slowly starting to understand why they don't speak out about it. It was a sad day for women. Yesterday was really a wake up call for me. Up until then I thought we were more or less equal, or not fully equal but I never thought it was as bad as this. How can a woman's sexual history have any effect on her ability to be raped?! I actually had a little cry last night, because I Am starting to realise how disadvantaged we really are. Things haven't really improved from the olden days at all. What a sad day to be a woman. No wonder so many rapes don't get in reported, because women are always painted as bloody liars, and the entire system is so make dominated. The fight for women has been going since the suffragettes and I dare say before, and while things have changed in terms of legislation, attitudes haven't really changed at all and neither has the sexism in the courts and other systems. This whole thing makes me so angry and afraid to be a woman in a way

Felascloak · 15/10/2016 14:06

Yeah quite beyond. I don't think trying different positions and saying "fuck me harder" are exceptional. Totally bog standard sex imo
They were also widely reported before the victim came forward.
It stinks.

cadnowyllt · 15/10/2016 14:11

If I went out tonight and pulled some pissed bloke, had consensual sex including his fetish of having the Bob the Builder theme tune on at the critical moment, if he accused me of sexual assault on Sunday I'm damn sure I'd want to call his previous partners to testify he couldn't get it up without Neil Morrissey warbling in the background. That's a bloody unusual preference and for the accused (me) to know about it implies some degree of interaction and advanced consent (though of course, it says nothing about whether consent had been withdrawn)

It's obvious that the more unusual the request, the stronger the evidence that she was conscious. But, unfortunately for CE's defence case, Bob the Builder songs wasn't the complainant's thing. Instead she liked to say 'Fuck me harder'. As you say, its not rare - but neither is it very common either. Some women say it and (hey surprise !) some don't.

But its what the defence had - guess they'd have loved for the complainant to have been whistling Bob the Builder, but alas....

FellOutOfBed2wice · 15/10/2016 14:15

Placemarking as I'm really Cross about this and want to read your thoughts.

venusinscorpio · 15/10/2016 14:15

Have you carried out a survey of how many women say "fuck me harder", then cadno?

venusinscorpio · 15/10/2016 14:17

And guess what, just managing to bring in her sexual history would have done the job anyway. No need for Bob the Builder, they just needed to paint her as a whore. That's all they really wanted to do because they know the extent of rape myths in society.

merrymouse · 15/10/2016 14:18

'Fuck me harder' is pretty common.

Obviously there are no statistics on how common, but it's certainly a cliche.

This has been one of the most high profile rape cases of the last few years. We need to know exactly why, in this case evidence from previous sexual partners was admissible. Rightly or wrongly it isn't clear.

BeyondPolkadots · 15/10/2016 14:23

I created a separate thread to ask about it! And being in feminism, I'm expecting a disproportionate amount of no answers compared to the general population

cadnowyllt · 15/10/2016 14:30

Have you carried out a survey of how many women say "fuck me harder", then cadno?

No survey - but I've had sex with somewhere in the region of 30-40 women - and some say it, or similar, and some don't.

The jury had 7 women in it and maybe they discussed the likelihood.

venusinscorpio · 15/10/2016 14:48

A representative sample of womanhood, clearly.

merrymouse · 15/10/2016 14:49

No survey - but I've had sex with somewhere in the region of 30-40 women - and some say it, or similar, and some don't.

Im not sure what that says about you or them, but it doesn't tell us anything more about the case.

cadnowyllt · 15/10/2016 14:57

Venusinscopio & Merrymouse It is what it is.

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