Ched Evans verdict

[FreshwaterSelkie]

to continue the discussion as the previous thread closed.

Genuine question here, not a troll!
I have had a couple of nights, years ago, when I drank so much I couldn't remember anything, but woke up naked next to a stranger. Horrible sickening feeling. The stranger also woke up looking shocked and asked me what my name was.

Isn't it just as important for me to get his consent as it is for him to get mine? If we are both stumbling around blind drunk and end up somehow having sex, is that consensual on either side?

He only stopped when he realised he was being unfaithful. He thinks that makes him a good person.

I feel so sorry for this young woman. The idea among men that it wasn't rape certainly isn't confined to a certain kind of man, a certain sort of Ched Evans wannabe, or a badly educated, badly brought up man. Well-educated professional men with families think the same thing (in my experience of talking about this case today).

If he gave even the tiniest toss about "being unfaithful" he wouldn't have booked the hotel room in the first place.

Mamaka, in my opinion, yes, equally important.

So how can you give or get consent when you're in that state?

I've made the mistake of reading the DM version and some of the comments. It's terminally depressing.

Well you can't. But the onus is on a man not to penetrate a woman who is that drunk, no matter how drunk he is. Because penetrative with penis is what rape is all about in english law.

Perhaps we do really need to tell men to stop drinking.

Manaka, I don't know. I've often wondered what woukd happen in such a case, presumably if both parties recall nothing then no case can happen?

Winchester lemme guess, any woman who has enjoyed a drunken one night stand basically deserves to be raped by any man who cons his way into the bedroom she's sleeping in and she should have zero recourse in law?

Oh come now Scallops, that would just be terribly unreasonable.

Women must be the ones to change themselves, in order to stop criminals from harming them.

Maybe women should just lock themselves into cupboards alone after the age of... well, birth I suppose?

Scallops I think I agree about the not drinking! It just seems too dangerous to allow such young adults to get themselves so drunk that they cannot give or get consent. I have mixed up thoughts about it all, especially when I think back through my own sexual history.

Not saying rape is ever ok but surely some onus falls on the woman not to get so blind drunk that she can't remember anything. And what if both her and the guy are drunk, they have sex and she later cant remember if she consents so regrets it and accuses him of rape on grounds that she was too drunk? Seems like a dark path to go down to me... He would have done nothing wrong (they were both drunk and she willingly opened his legs for him) and yet he could go to jail...

Yes, that's already been answered. Also, she didn't accuse him of anything, he admitted it.

Now, tell us about this not in any way creepy man thing

"And what if both her and the guy are drunk, they have sex and she later cant remember if she consents so regrets it"

Hmm this is what I experienced when I was younger.

I think careful and responsible drinking needs to be taught along with what consent means. The two have to go hand in hand.

Enzouk she didn't accuse him of rape.

Not saying rape is ever ok but surely some onus falls on the woman not to get so blind drunk that she can't remember anything.

Anyone is well within their rights to get blind drunk if the so wish, that doesn't give anyone the right to rape, assault or take advantage of them in any way shape or form.

And what if both her and the guy are drunk, they have sex and she later cant remember if she consents so regrets it and accuses him of rape on grounds that she was too drunk?

That is not what happened in this case (therefore it's irrelevant) and it really doesn't happen as often as many people like to believe.

Alcohol isn't viagra. If a man truely is totally blind drunk would he really be capable of a sustained erection without... I don't know, falling asleep, needing a piss, getting brewers droop?

I'm always skeptical of these claims that the man and woman were equally drunk. Nah. In my youthful days both being totally pished meant sex was too much of a faff and you fell asleep. When the other person has had more than you though... more than once I have stared at a sleeping partner thinking erm I thought we were going to shag not sleep. If I'd had a penis and male superiority complex presumably I could have engineered it so the sleeping person was penetrated at some point before or during the sleeping.

She can't consent if she's blind drunk. Again I refer you to my previous post, Enzouk. The onus is on a man not to penetrate a woman without her consent.

Not sure why any woman should bear responsibility for a man penetrative her without her consent. He has a choice. He doesn't have to stick his dick into anyone.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Deleteordecay...true, it didnt....i'm just talking about generally. It seems that a drunk man can have his life ruined if a woman cant remember that she was begging him to 'f*ck her harder' and later accuses him of rape for whatever reason. Seems like the law doesn't add up there for me. How many times it happens is insignificant to the guy it does happen to. I'm sure many women here wouldnt want that to happen to their male relatives. After all ...doesn't a man also have the right to safely have sex without risk that his life might be ruined by being falsely accused ?

Why is it so hard for men to treat women as human beings with boundaries and bodily autonomy?

And I've said this already today but I'll say it again. Rape is never about what the woman does, it is always about the actions of the man. You only have to hear how predatory CE was to understand the truth.

True batteries. Perhaps the stranger in my scenario was not as drunk as I thought he was.

I also have had an enlightening discussion about rape before with men talking about the actual mechanics of it.

Like for example a man saying that he was having enthusiastic sex with his drunk consenting girlfriend once but then she just got tired in the middle of it so he stopped because she suddenly wasn't responding. He said he couldn't imagine having sex with someone unable to push back / provide rhythm back. His face when he said 'you'd have to be really forceful. Like...violent'

That is the reality of unconsenting sex. Not some accident some poor man might end up having.

RE can't consent if blind drunk
Thats another thing that bothers me about this case
The judge said drunk consent is still consent
But if someone is that drunk, they might mumble "sure" if you say "shall I set the house on fire". And the judge must have herself presided over cases where people used drink as a mitigating factor? Tipsy consent, maybe, but drunk consent?

FFS. She didn't accuse him of rape.

That was to Enzouk, for clarity.