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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Yes, it is another trans thread - attempted murderer Lauren Jeska

406 replies

PippaFawcett · 22/09/2016 19:40

Absolutely no mention AT ALL in the BBC coverage that celebrated 'female' fell runner Lauren Jeska's reason for attempting to murder an athletic official is because she was discovered to be transgender and could have lost her titles, because obviously the women competing against her were at an unfair disadvantage.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37439875

I was baffled at Jeska's motivation until I read the DM's version: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801806/Former-fell-running-champion-Lauren-Jeska-admits-attempted-murder-former-rugby-player-Ralph-Knibbs.html#comments

Usual disclaimer that I have no issue with transgender people but this complete denial of the facts of biology does no-one any favours. And I presume this crime will go down as being perpetrated by a woman?

OP posts:
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avamiah · 16/03/2017 00:32

Datun,
I agree with you this crime was very premeditated.
However, whether she intended to kill or cause serious bodily harm is another factor but if a individual is carrying and concealing dangerous weapons ( knifes) and carries out a sustained and violent attack on another person then in my opinion their intention is to cause death .

Valanice1989 · 16/03/2017 00:50

I have been incredibly lucky: I have never personally experienced transphobic attacks or abuse to any significant extent -- unlike a friend of mine who was beaten up and left unconscious in the street outside her home, or the transwoman whose murder was recently videoed and posted on YouTube.

By your own logic, StrangeAdventure, isn't it possible that the people who murdered that transwoman may simply have "snapped" because of some trauma in their own lives? Wouldn't that make the murder "explicable"?

StrangeAdventure · 16/03/2017 01:02

OK. Last post from me on this subject, because I am clearly wasting my time trying to explain anything. But picklemepopcorn did say that I hadn't tried to engage with any of the points raised. The snag is that I do have other things to do with my life.

AssassinatedBeauty: UK Athletic already knew that she was trans, and knew that she had competed in the same sport as a man before her transition. The reason they asked for further blood tests was because of what the police described as "historical complaints" .

I didn't suggest "a wave of hate": I suggested that someone used the fact that Jeska was trans as an excuse to stir up trouble for her.

sash: I am sorry to hear that you are disabled. But no-one chooses to be transsexual, either. A key difference is that you are prevented from competing by your disability. Jeska was prevented by deliberate action of a human being.

uniquehornsonly: that is clearly a photograph of an adult amongst a group of children. It is irrelevant.

Datun: you are making an assumption (that she had reason to hide her testosterone levels) when you only need to check a few basic biological facts to see for yourself that a post-op transsexual (like Jeska) cannot produce testosterone.

Egosumquisum: Thank you: that is precisely what I was trying to say, very much more concisely put "Sadly some people are driven to commit such awful crimes when they become desperate" I agree that it is no excuse... but it is an explanation.

Ageingrunner: Jeska was not "a feminine man". She was a transsexual an internationally recognised medical condition that is as far removed from effeminacy as a brain tumour is from a headache. Many transsexuals spend decades trying to suppress their transsexualism by taking on highly "macho" roles but it often gets them in the end.

You say "According to the DM". In trans matters, the DM's track record is that almost nothing it publishes can be relied upon as fact.

You say "Men afraid of being laughed at and women scared of being killed" is a ridiculous misrepresentation. The number of transwomen who have committed any kind of violent crime is miniscule compared wit the number that have been the victims of violent crime.

HumphreyCobblers: I assume that someone thought they had something to gain by making "historical complaints" about events that happenned five years ago. I am absolutely certain that many of those who have been trying to whip up anti-trans feeling in the press most recently are doing it because they profit by doing so.

Of course I have sympathy for the victim. I think that is such an obvious sentiment that there is little point getting involved in a semantic competition to see who can express the most sympathy for the victim or abhorrence for the crime.

enoughisenough12: I agree that there is a trend, but I suggest that it is in the opposite direction to that which you suggest. This attempted murder has featured in several daily newspapers and the BBC. Violent attacks on transwomen are an almost daily occurrence (there was one in Blackpool today, for instance) but I have seen nothing about it in any of the mainstream press.

Barcoo: No, nor did I suggest that transwomen have been physically attacked by Greer/Bindel.Murray etc. And nor was it "male violence": Jeska is not male, and has not been for about 20 years.

Pencilsinspace: "explanations" and "excuses" are two different things.

CharlieSierra: Greer, Bindel and Murray have a long track record of attacking trans people. When it comes to physical violence, you are quite correct: transwomen are at far greater risk of suffering from male vioence than non-trans women.

SleepWhatSleep1: Mental Health issues can be caused by suppression of transsexuality, and are relieved (at least partly) by transitioning. That is the main point of transitioning: it is the only "cure" for the problem. And I completely agree that trans "status" is not an excuse for violence. But I (again) point out that the constant barrage of transphobia, increases the chances that some individuals will be driven to lash out against it.

BigDeskBob: I'm afraid that is simply wrong: Greer, Bindel, and Murray all generate significant income for themselves by attacking trans people at every opportunity.

MercyMyJewels: you are quite right: trans people are not unique, and "every murderer [etc] will have a horrific story to tell. That does not excuse their crime, but it may explain it.

CharlieSierra: The trouble is that most of what I see paraded as "the truth" about trans issues is actually fiction: it is pure hate speech dressed up with non-facts, or with important facts omitted.

stitchglitched: Jeska is not a biological male.

HmmmOkay: I said the lack of testosterone reduces our aggression: I didn't say it eliminates it. Or are you suggesting that no women have ever committed any kind of violence after years/decades of emotional abuse?

Wobblylegs5: Jeska wasn't "about to get found out" : UK athletic knew she was trans, and had taken the decision to allow her to compete in women's events.

re: "I think men think women like it": I think you have a point. But I think you have been fed a distorted idea of how transwomen dress (and think). Caitlyn Jenner is an unusual example, particularly that awful photo-shoot. In the early days of transition, many of us do make the same kinds of mistake as teenage girls do, with heavy make-up and provocative clothing, because we are going through the same learning process. But most of us grow out of it (as teenage girls do). Personally, I follow the female "dress code" at work, and usually wear joggers and tunic tops most of the rest of the time. If I'm going out to some kind of function, I get a bit more dressed up, but I don't go for short skirts or low-cut tops, and my highest heels are about 2-inches (most of the time I wear flats). I would say that I'm more typical than Caitlyn Jenner!

QueenLaBeefah: most transwomen that I know do not "find it difficult" to understand harrassment and male violence, and find it just as abhorrent as non-trans women do. The urge to transition has nothing to do with wanting "sunshine and lollipops"

QuentinSummers: suicide is not a logical reaction, nor is murder. What they have in common is that "something has snapped", and the person concerned cannot think logically.

Benlinusatemyhomework: I didn't say Knibbs said those things. And Jeska had complied with the regulations: UK Athletic knew she was trans, and had allowed her to compete. It was when they required additional tests that the situation deteriorated.

BetsyM00: We're not allowed to use the technical term cis-woman because it offends people. but when we're discussing the difference between trans and non-trans, we need something to distinguish between the two categories. Non-trans seemed to me like the least offensive option.

DickToPhone: The list you have given includes many of the individual procedures that are included in male-to-female and female-to-male GRS. MtoF GRS invariably includes orchiectomy (castration) as an essential precursor to genital reconstruction.

I'm afraid the idea that transsexuals "Just have a boob job" is pure fantasy.

Bambambini: no point responding to such blatant transphobia

Tartyflette: if you look at photos of top women athletes, you will see plenty of broad shoulders, distinct muscles, and (often) narrow hips. Many are quite tall, too -- Frances Houghton (UK rowing squad) for instance, is 6ft 4in tall and several of her team-mates are over 6ft. And women have "Adam's Apples" just as men do. Men's are generally bigger, but there is considerable overlap between the sexes, and it has no impact on sporting performance.

Datun: I'm not trying to "justify" violence. But I do wish you would get your facts right: violence towards transwomen is an everyday occurrence right here in the UK. Statistically, we suffer more violence that non-trans women. Transwomen do not commit violence at the same rate as men. Jeska was not "cheating".
I'm afraid if you have to resort to disinformation like this, it tends to suggest that you are desperate to "win" an argument rather than discuss the issues. Dare I suggest that that is a very male trait?

OK, that's me done. I have to go to work in the morning

DickToPhone · 16/03/2017 01:07

Yes these terrible deaths of transwomen.

There was one in the paper today.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4317526/Woman-admits-killing-drag-queen-silicone-injection.html

"A Florida woman has admitted to causing the death of a popular drag queen after she injected her with illegal silicone."

Woman you say? Oh: "Former friends claim that Roberts, who they say is also transgender, preyed on LGBT performers across Florida and Georgia"

A disproportionate number of stats used by transadvocates are wrong.

E.g.,

"how about that one in twelve risk for trans women being murdered by cis people. Or one in eight if you happen to be a trans woman of colour."

www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/

"According to the Williams Institute, .3 of individuals identify as transgender. That’s 1 in 333 (ish).
According to the FBI, people living in the US have a lifetime murder risk of 1 in 240, in 1997. I don’t have current statistics for lifetime murder risk, but from 1997 to 2010, the homicide rates fell from a total of 18,208 (1997) to 14,748 (2010).
If 14,748 people were murdered in 2010, and 1 in 333 people in the general population are transgender, and transgender people are murdered disproportionately to other demographic groups, then we would expect greater than 1 in 333 murders to be murders of transgender people. So, greater than 44 people.*
According to the Transgender Day of Remembrance, 14 transgender people were murdered in the US in 2010"

So in fact transgender people are LESS likely to be murdered than other people.

Question for all the transadvocates - why do we need stuff like

europe.newsweek.com/transgender-murders-protect-trans-women-568558

"TRANSGENDER MURDER STATISTICS SHOW WHY ‘PROTECT TRANS WOMEN’ DAY IS NECESSARY

Of the seven murders already this year, six were of black women while the other was of a Native American. In the space of a few days last month, four trans women of color were murdered."

Why do we need lists of transgender murders on Wikipedia when there is no list of murdered women, or murdered sex workers? What is special about transgender murder victims that they should be listed separately?

Why do we need a day to protect transwomen and specifically black transwomen? What about the fact that black men are already much more likely to be murdered than white men?

DickToPhone · 16/03/2017 01:08

"I'm afraid the idea that transsexuals "Just have a boob job" is pure fantasy."

No surgery is required at all. You just need to state you are a woman and job is done. Like Mary Poppins.

TentPegsAndWetWipes · 16/03/2017 01:09

"transwomen are at far greater risk of suffering from male vioence than non-trans women."
HOW DARE YOU! !Angry
I hope that was a typo

stitchglitched · 16/03/2017 01:09

'Jeska is not a biological male.'

Yes they are. You can alter appearance, presentation, identity, pronouns. But you can't change scientific fact.

ageingrunner · 16/03/2017 01:31

I'm aware that Jeska was a transsexual. What I was saying was that if he has comfortably been able to be a feminine man, this problem wouldn't have occurred because he wouldn't have been running in women's races.
I'm well aware that the DM is often not a reliable source, however it has the only mention I could find of whether or not Jeska was out as being tg.
And it's simply not true about tw being the victims of crime but never the perpetrators. Every day there are more and more cases of tw being involved in violent and sexual crime, just like men, because they retain a male pattern of criminality. This is well documented.

TentPegsAndWetWipes · 16/03/2017 01:51

By the way the image of Gabrielle Ludwig is in a women's basketball team - not children. Gabrielle Ludwig is a 50 year old mttrans competing in sports with 18-20 year old women - apparently as one of them www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/04/college-basketball-transgender-player-gabrielle-ludwig-robert-ludwig-mission-college/1744703/

Barcoo2 · 16/03/2017 04:35

Strange I admire you for responding in good faith but you have been very dismissive of the autogynephilia phenomenon. I encourage you to read more about it, particularly the reddit page where they fetishise teenage girls bodies while at the same time being attracted to them - there's a recent link in peak trans thread on gender critical. On phone now so i can't link. Also i wasn't referring to Jeska's action as male violence (in that point i made) - more the fact that transwomen always cite vulnerability to violence then connect it to "TERFs". That's ridiculous.

SharkBastard · 16/03/2017 05:17

"transwomen are at far greater risk of suffering from male vioence than non-trans women"

That statement is possibly the most ill researched spout if shite I've read in a long time. Your blinkered ignorance is astounding, also, no you don't need a new word to separate us.

I am a woman, you are a trans woman, there's the difference

picklemepopcorn · 16/03/2017 05:42

Jenni Murray does not make a lot of money attacking trans people. She has been a respected journalist with her own radio show since God was a lad, and she did not achieve that by criticising trans people at every opportunity. Writing an article raising questions about the current self identification trend is not 'attacking' trans people.

The word for an adult female who is not a transwoman is 'woman'. At the time of the crime, Lauren was a transwoman. A DNA test would identify her as male. I am happy for her to pick her own pronouns and choose her own clothes. She cannot pick her own DNA.

And the sport thing, there are categories differentiated by sex because most men are stronger/faster/have more endurance than most women. There are outliers among women who's strength and build gives them an advantage against other women. Almost all transwomen would have that advantage.

I have always had empathy for transpeople who experience such distress about their condition. I hate our gendered society which drives people to feel they have to conform to certain roles.
Can you feel no empathy for the disadvantaged women who transwomen are displacing? It feels as though you are blaming us for your condition, and making us be the solution to it. Making us 'not trans women' so you can be 'women'. Can you not understand our pain? Our identity is being challenged. When your identity is challenged you consider that an attack. What about us?

Iris65 · 16/03/2017 05:54

Strange Adventure

Excellent post.

I haven't been posting because of other things going on in my life.

I wish I had time and energy to engage. I also know the feeling of futility when trying to explain the facts.

My conclusion is that some posters do not want to understand or do know but want to carry on away.

Good luck those of you are trying to bring some balance into this thread.

Iris65 · 16/03/2017 05:59

Picklemepopcorn Your last post was one of the best that I have read on this side of the issue of identity. So thank you.

Iris65 · 16/03/2017 06:02

transwomen are at far greater risk of suffering from male vioence than non-trans women"

Factually correct. The data is available. Don't have time to post the link but I can if necessary.

picklemepopcorn · 16/03/2017 06:05

Thank you Iris.

I hate to bring bathrooms into it, because it isn't about bathrooms, but the blurring of the lines allows 'this' to happen:

www.thegetrealmom.com/blog/womensrestroom

'This' isn't the fault of transwomen, it's the fault of certain predatory, entitled men. But shutting down the debate and stopping women raising the issue of biology leaves women very vulnerable to incidents like the one in the article.

CaroleService · 16/03/2017 06:36

Doesn't the sentence speak for itself?

'Sentencing Jeska, Judge Simon Drew QC said her crime had been a 'cool, calculated attack' which had been 'wholly unprovoked'.

18 years plus an extended licence of 5 years when she is released is a tough tariff. Though she was remanded in September 2016 for psychiatric evaluation prior to sentencing; she has been jailed rather than detained at a hospital - so her mental condition doesn't seem to have cut much ice.

egosumquisum1 · 16/03/2017 06:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaroleService · 16/03/2017 06:55

What do you mean by 'provoked attack', Ego?

I nodded along to parts of your post until I saw that.

egosumquisum1 · 16/03/2017 06:58

I meant 'unprovoked' - I didn't see that when I posted. I'll see if I can withdraw and repost that.

egosumquisum1 · 16/03/2017 06:59

corrected version

To those of you bringing in 'autogynephilia' - something that many people on here link to late transitioning people and transgender, doesn't Lauren fit the idea of a 'real transsexual' - a concept that's talked about on here a lot.

Transitioned in 2000. Had surgery - and the person talking about 'boob' jobs seems dismissive of someone who is most likely to have undergone orchidectomy and vaginoplasty.

Seems to have passed ok and been taken for a female by people she met.

So I'm not sure why some people are choosing to discuss autogynophilia?

It's also a bit depressing to see a real dismissal of the attacks, abuse and fear transwomen do face - it may or may not be more than your average women - but there's a real dismissal of that on here. Almost beliittling of the real fear and dangers that trans people face.

This is an awful crime committed by someone who transitioned 16 years ago, who had surgery, who was taken as female by people she met and who then deliberately attacked someone in an unprovoked attack.

She won't be the first person to do that - male, female or trans and she won't be the last. Men, women , trans people - all commit crimes and are all capable of violence.

SharkBastard · 16/03/2017 07:05

"Factually correct. The data is available. Don't have time to post the link but I can if necessary."

Please do as I believe it to not be correct, and really not comparable given that there are more women than trans women so the stats would be very skewed

CaroleService · 16/03/2017 07:07

I think that helps!

Another point though: I don't believe that anyone here does dismiss violence and hate towards transwomen. But when we see those terms applied to Jenni Murray's thoughtful and factual article ... we roll our eyes. And perhaps the continued equation of free speech with 'literal violence' has a 'boy who cried wolf' effect?

egosumquisum1 · 16/03/2017 07:08

and really not comparable given that there are more women than trans women so the stats would be very skewed

Given the millions of women out there and the few transwomen, it would be hard to make ANY statement on trans women and the violence they face / are responsible for in the UK.

egosumquisum1 · 16/03/2017 07:10

But when we see those terms applied to Jenni Murray's thoughtful and factual article

Totally agree.

I don't believe that anyone here does dismiss violence and hate towards transwomen

Sometimes it seems people do. But that's probably a different thread.

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