Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Dare I get my hopes up, that enough people are taking notice of how crazy it all is...

No it's not good. I will listen back today but I'm pretty sure they said the problem was being revisited 'but this time with trans advisors'. However one of the legal guests spoke about how women would not be happy to have them in the women's prison population.

WW is that Law in Action?

Yes with Clive Anderson?

You could not make this shit up:

Bustle magazine published an article with the title "'Bridget Jones's Baby' Is The First Movie Trilogy With All Female Directors, But That's Just One Crack In The Glass Ceiling". The article has now been edited to say that the Bridget Jones trilogy is the second to have all female directors. Why? Because someone complained via Twitter that the headline was inaccurate and transphobic. After all, The Matrix trilogy was directed by the Wachowksi Sisters - it's just that they were still identifying as the Wachowski Brothers at the time.

I've written a petition, if you peeps want to change anything feel free to. If you are happy with my wording, feel free to start the petition online.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check

What do you want us to do?

Examine why laws based on transgender ideology conflict with females rights.

Background:

Laws based on "gender identity", (what amounts to a persons affinity to gender stereotypes) instead of the biological sex one is born. Is sexist and only benefits males, it violates females human right to safety, privacy, dignity and equality. It sets females rights back to the victorian era.

Additional details:

Male and white are dominant groups. How is a male "identifying" as a woman, different from a white person identifying as black?
The DSM V says male "adolescents and adults with late-onset gender dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behaviour with sexual excitement" (APA, 2013). Why should women be legally forced to share spaces with these men? The legitimacy of the ideology of transgenderism needs to be debated. Before laws are made, that supersede sex and violate females rights.

I think it needs some rewording, Witch, but I'm afraid my brain's shutting down atm. I'll come back to it later if no-one else has a go.
I'll be one of your initial supporters, you can PM me for the address :)

Nope. Not having that. I just put a post on my fb and sadly I'm a wee bit anxious as to the reaction it may get. Fuck this rabbit hole. Seriously.

They're doing it deliberately. They're just nasty little shit stirring trolling attention seekers. These people hate women and idiots bend over backwards to enable it. It makes me so angry.

^ "Not having that" re The Matrix, obviously (I hope) Cross post.
Should the petition touch on the ethical implications involved in unquestioningly transitioning kids?
Or is that a topic for another petition?

Definitely need rewording but my wording is not the best and I often put my foot in it or appear overly harsh

But yes, I will be an initial supporter also once it is all done, just PM for email address.

I cannot believe how strongly I feel on this matter now that I know more about it. So odd to think that a month ago I could maybe have been one of those blindly calling you all terfs as I didn't understand it. Crazy.

I posted this on a reddit thread to some poor bloke who is confused about who he is and started transition and now feels he shouldn't be imposing himself into womens areas and such having looked outside of his 'trans-group'. Consensus was pretty much 'stop listening to the TERFs' and 'you are a real woman' and such so I tried appealing to their sense of reason...I expect to be downvoted or flamed but maybe will get a decent convo...

--------

There is no reason why transwomen and women cannot coexist peacefully. However the first thing that needs to happen is a line needs to be drawn, and this needs to be 'agreed' by those involved. I hate the idea of any human being confused and not content within themselves but the transgender/womens rights crossover really does need to be solved. And crying 'TERF' or 'transwomen are men' with every attempt at this discussion is not going to solve the very real tensions running high right now.

I know a lot of transgender people do not see this as a conversation to be had, more simply something that HAS to be done, and I totally get that. Its uncomfortable, and someone is going to be unhappy with the result of the conversation. Others see it as a conversation that doesn't have to be had as simply 'they are men, use the mens'. But this kind of attitude is exactly what is drawing everyone backwards.

The main thing I see shouted about is the likes of changing rooms. Transgender people wish to use the room according to their gender identity. 'TERFs' wish to keep these areas sex-segregated. To begin with..these places were never separated by gender, they were separated by biological sex.

If everyone understands the reasons for the segregation in the first place..I cannot see why anyone could argue against it? Put quite bluntly, biological women are at huge risk from biological men and this is proved in the sheer numbers of rapes and assaults and such committed against biological women by biological men. Not many biological men would dream of hurting a biological woman in such a way..but if they did, chances are they are naturally strong and large enough to overpower the biological woman. There will be exceptions to this of course, but speaking broadly, men are a risk to women because of biological reasons.

The fear transwoman feel going into the male changing room, the fear of attack..this is exactly what many biological women feel too when faced with a biological man.

Speaking on an entirely personal level, I am not scared of men..for any reason. However I have been lucky enough not to experience anything that would make me fear men. I am also more...'butch' than a lot of other biological women and as such I feel confident that if ever faced with a biological male attempting to overpower me, I would have a good shot at fighting back. I personally do not give a crap about sex segregation. I would be all for sex-segregated areas being done away with totally and everything being neutral..IF it was on a personal level. But it is not just about me. I have to think of others who are not like me. And averagely it works out that biological males are a very real risk to biological females. Many biological females have been sexually assaulted or raped by biological men. This is the main reason for separation at vulnerable moments. Hence sex-segregation.

The whole sex-segregated areas argument seems to DOMINATE every discussion about this. And the important thing is that everyone sees everyone else as equal. I personally know noone who thinks transgender people are less than human as I see claimed a lot..nor anyone who would reject anyone else simply for being who they are.

But this whole sex-segregation thing is whats causing issues and tensions right now, and such tensions simply aren't needed.

I think the solution to this is quite simple, though I expect many to disagree. Sex-segregated areas remain sex-segregated..however a neutral option is given in each situation. However, I have only seen it mentioned that transwomen do not feel safe in male areas? Never the other way around? If I am wrong please correct me though. So now..the neutral option becomes a kind of second womens option, but for everyone bar cis men. Meaning, transwomen, transmen and biological women can all use it.

Honestly, we could all live together pretty peacefully (or as peacefully as humans ever can...) if issues that affect us all can actually be spoken about instead of immediately shut down with cries of 'but they are men!!!' or 'terf'

As a side note, I do speak to a fair few people who would in some circles be written off as 'terf scum' or something. And every one of them says that if campaigns and such for something similar to my neutral suggestion happened, they would be happy to stand alongside transwomen to make this happen. They just disagree that (for example) a biological woman who has been raped by a biological man and as such fears biological men, should be faced with one somewhere she should feel safe.

I know how hard it is to think this through from anything other than a personal perpective. As humans, we automatically want whats best for US...fuck everyone else. But everyone taking the personal route doesn't seem to be going too well really does it. Its just breeding more hatred, from both sides.

Coming to some kind of equal ground will stop people feeling like the OP of this thread. The only issue I see again and again is this sex-segregation business. And places were never gender-segregated in the first place. gender is a feeling, gender is who you are. Sex is simply what your body says you are, and a bunch of biological differences.

I cannot believe how strongly I feel on this matter now that I know more about it. So odd to think that a month ago I could maybe have been one of those blindly calling you all terfs as I didn't understand it. Crazy.

Same here, Monkey. Well, except for the "TERF" part - I don't think I'd heard that word at the time. But when I first noticed threads about trans rights on MN, I thought the gender-critical posters were horrible bigots who were bullying a marginalised group. I also thought they must really hate men if they objected to sharing a public bathroom with someone just because they used to have a penis.

I have never in my life changed my mind about a social issue as quickly as I did when I started reading more about trans rights. I found out that "transgender" wasn't just a more modern term for "transsexual" - a man can now be legally recognised as female without even having genital surgery. I had never thought through the consequences of creating a loophole that allows men to be placed in women's prisons. And allows men to stay in women's shelters and refuges. And allows men to compete in women's sports. And allows companies to boost their official number of "female" employees without having to worry about maternity leave...

I cannot believe how strongly I feel on this matter now that I know more about it. So odd to think that a month ago I could maybe have been one of those blindly calling you all terfs as I didn't understand it. Crazy.

This.
100%
This is me too!
Guess I must be Spartacus.

Will also be an initial supporter - pm if needed.
(I might even make an attempt at rewording ... staying on topic)

Interesting stats I just came across. For US mind...

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/the-new-math/

Funnily enough it seems there are more 'trans' people in areas that are heavily religious.

Yet 'trans' is nothing to do with homophobia?

?? I may be missing something (on iPod at the mo) but the map looked opposite to that to me WM.

You would be correct. I had the scale wrong..for some reason read it as the lighter states were more trans populated

Dear god. Talk about 'disproving' my own point. OK, I still think a lot of trans stuff is deeply homophobic. However, seems data proves me wrong.

'“I am able to identify 135,367 individuals who are likely to be transgender. Of these, 89,667 were alive during the 2010 Census.”'

Is this saying...45k aged 6 years or younger children are trans? Or 18 and under? Not too sure how 'census' works...and it reads to me like a huge number of very young kids?

Matilda The Player of Games by Iain M. Banks is set on a planet where there are three sexes who inhabit very different social stations. It's back drop though.

The whole Culture series is set in a civilisation where people can change their sex (and back again) very easily (but not instantly). It's not presented as dystopian in itself though. For example, when a couple are in love, it is common for them to spend some time together in switched sexes (or as two members of the same sex, if IIRC), so they can get to know what the other's personality is like as the opposite sex, what it is like to make love to one another as a man not a woman etc. Which is a lot more benign that what we're seeing now I think.

I love the Culture novels! The difference with the sex-changing there is that it takes place against a backdrop of a truly egalitarian society, which has been that way for thousands of years where it genuinely makes no difference in social standing if one is male or female. Iain Banks solved the pronoun issue by having one pronoun for all. I don't think it's possible in Marain to refer to male or female (or AI) in the third person (geek much!).

I wish I lived in the Culture.

I've never been able to get my head around the religious support for trans. (well there's a lot of the whole situation that I can't 'get' but. . . )

Anyway all the religions I've encountered so far believe in a infallible God, therefore how can someone be born in the wrong body???

Hi MN people.

First off I'm transgender. Thought I'd get that out of the way quickly (and I'm expecting some people to try and get me banned). But I feel it's always good to have a different viewpoint on some of these discussions.

The topic was 'genderless' society. That isn't really a goal of the whole trans movement, it's more a question of 'why do we need gender recorded on some stuff'. Take your driving license, for instance. Does it matter if you are male or female? Do you drive differently, require different equipment or additional medical checks to drive because you are a different gender?

That's the point.

Your assigned gender and biological sex are still important facts that need to be recorded somewhere. But currently we have the situation where trans women are being sent requests for pap smears (and trans men are not) by the NHS which is hardly ideal either.

As to the whole bathroom debate. Let's be clear on this, we aren't raising this issue - it's actually mostly men raising this. Trans people have been using the bathroom of the gender they present for a very long time. Women (cisgender or transgender) have not been attacked because of this. In the UK it's not even illegal for a man to walk into a women's bathroom anyway, irrespective of how he presents.

There are people out there that get aroused by wearing women's clothes. They are different people from trans women. Transvestic fetishists and autogynephiles exist. Trans women are neither. We aren't going into your bathrooms to spy on you or to try and assault you, we are going into women's bathrooms mostly because we need to pee. A lot of us use disabled or unisex toilets because we don't feel accepted in women's bathrooms or safe in men's bathrooms. I personally have driven home with my legs crossed (figuratively not literally) because I didn't feel comfortable using a ladies bathroom beforehand. These days I use the ladies regularly and have never had any issues.

Personally I run a support group for trans people and we face many of the same issues that cis women do. Misogyny, patriarchy, employment issues, cat-calling on the street etc. But we also have to face a health system that is playing catch up with trans people, serious issues around bureaucracy and paperwork and being constantly misgendered by people who have been told what our new names, titles and pronouns are.

Finally I'm not here to yell at people or label everyone a TERF. That's not my style. Ad hominem attacks are a failure in any debate and I do agree to differ with people. Oh, and please don't get me started on religion and trans people. It really isn't that simple (just look at the Mormons).

ATM - I don't see anything in your post which would want anyone to get you banned. Well, maybe a militant TA type might? I hope everyone here is open to 'PARD' - polite and reasonable discourse. There's a lot in your post I'd guess most of us would agree with - the distinction between trans people such as yourself and the others who've shoved under the trans umbrella, sometimes pushing you out into the storm.

'genderless society' isn't the same thing as 'sexless society'. I see no reason for sex (let alone 'gender') to be specified on a driving license. Whereas on a medical record sex absolutely must be there (if I've read you correctly you agree?) - along with a record of treatments for trans people. In that context both original and acquired sex presumably should be recorded?

Please don't call me 'cisgender' and 'ciswoman'. That labelling misidentifies and offends me to the core of who I am and who I feel and know I am. I really hope you can understand this.

ATransMum "The topic was 'genderless' society."

um, which topic? this thread is about self ID so I wonder if you posted in the right place?

Btw, I would not seek to ban you and I'm sure that's true of most of us.

I dislike the term cis as well.

"it's more a question of 'why do we need gender recorded on some stuff'. Take your driving license, for instance. Does it matter if you are male or female? Do you drive differently, require different equipment or additional medical checks to drive because you are a different gender? "

Well, insurance companies feel this is crucial data. I would rather not carry the can for higher risk drivers so I'm okay with certain data being collected for risk assessment in driving, for example.

Err mum I don't think you've been following the self-identification debate. Males with autogynephilia are being considered trans gender in the same way as any other group of trans people.
It's not surprising trans women are sent smear requests if they have an F on their paperwork. It's done by computer. And it's not acceptable for many to consider giving a TW their own designator as it's "othering" and exclusionary.
It's really a minefield and if you have issues with the direction things are going in (ie with autogynephilia) then it would be more helpful to stand with us to fight for the rights of your group rather than assuming we are TERFs and hate you.