Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Chariot, please could say what you mean by "transitioning" and "gender binary"?

I have to ask the first question because I don't know if you mean transsexuals and the second question, well, I don't even think gender binary exists except in the minds of weirdos who think girls can wear pink and boys can't or shouldn't.

And you're right. I am going to stop saying "transgender".

What I had in mind with 'Gender binary' was along the lines of an official document I saw this week that had two options for sex: male or female. Or toilets that I queued to use (again, men's or women's). Or in shops where there is a menswear department and a (usually much bigger) womenswear dept.

Transitioning can mean lots of things, as I suspect you probably know: hormones, surgeries, change of name, clothes, hair etc.

A slight tangent, but there are already all-female Freemasons and also mixed Freemasons, in the UK, should anyone actually be interested in 'learning the mysteries' whilst female....

What about the shouty "non binary" or "genderqueer" cohort? Why shouldn't their gender identities be validated?

Venus, of course genderqueer/ n-bs should be valued, whether or not they are 'shouty.'

Chariot, so your question is, will that range of activities prop up current biological sex divisions? No, I don't think it will.

You said " The logic of transitioning suggests a definite move across a gender divide"

I am perplexed by this because transitioning as per your description serves to underline gender stereotypes.

Even though that undermines your point, Chariots? Whatever it was.

It very much serves to underline gender stereotypes. In fact, it (formally and legally!) elevates them above the status of biological sex.

In a lot of ways this doesn't matter. But it matters very much in things related to women's safety & health - and once you start thinking about that, it encompasses a vast area of activity.

People born with a Y chromosome will still be, on average, bigger and stronger than those with all Xs. They will still produce more testosterone giving many a tendency to explosive aggression. They will still have penises (or penes, as I've only just learned the correct plural) and the previously mentioned qualities will still lead them to sexual assault. No doubt they'll still be raised with a sense of invulnerability and culturally granted greater entitlements.

People with all X chromosomes - previously known as 'women' - will still be more at risk both physically and culturally. They'll still be smaller & lighter, on average. They will still be child-bearers, birthers, carers and general dogsbodies. The concept of gender has always been used to enforce these roles on women & girls. Now it's careering back towards a rigid binary, it's becoming so much easier to manipulate them long-term into their role as tools & accessories for men. See pink/blue books & play sets, labelled beautiful/brilliant respectively.

Gender isn't an identity. We have to be trained into it from a young age. If that's done effectively, we grow up to include it in our self-understanding: I am a pretty girl, I'm kind and gentle, I can't throw overarm and I'm not good at maths. I want a big strong man to protect me and fix my washing machine.

100 years of good work disappearing in front of us - and, at the same time, 50 years of gay rights. If you're a pretty, kind and gentle boy who likes boys, but 'gender' means more than sex, what's this going to mean for you? Non-conformity isn't acceptable: if you can't be toughened into a 'real boy', now you can be changed into a 'real girl'.

I foresee a world of pain.

Love that post Garlic.

Thanks!

There's a piece on the BBC website about a man (transwoman) and woman (transman) in Ecuador who had a baby. The transman (mother) is the 'father' and the transwoman (father) is the 'mother'. All terms used uncritically by the BBC. The same article talks about the first pregnant 'man' who is now a 'father' of three. Ok so the Ecuador couple publicised the pregancy and birth blah blah and on one broadcast clip the hospital during their care of the mother ('father' transman - do keep up) said to her 'please don't forget you are a woman'.

For which they were forced to issue a public apology.

#worldgonemad

I saw that, Winchester. Heterosexual couple have baby. World news.

#rabbithole

I've commented on a 'lovely dad has transgender daughter (was son)' Upworthy story. Everyone's being very polite atm so I've asked a transwoman who replied to tell me what gender identity means to her, as I haven't got one.

I'm knocking off for the night now, but will share any revelations in the morning. I've never actually seen anyone answer this without referencing sparkly dresses etc, but she's agreed gender expression is different from gender identity so we'll see :)

Oh fab I'll have a look. Interesting that in the , Ecuador story the lesbian and gay community had turned against the transgender couple.

I couldn't find your story but I found some awful stuff including one article on the NHS about a transgender child. And a dreadful man who got so screechy at not being able to use the women's toilet in a pub, he twitter shamed them with a video as 'transphobic shitlords' and got such a campaign going they to shut their website down. Knob.

I just don't understand the parents of these kids. My son wore a dress for a year. The same dress. We could barely get it off him to wash it. Nobody cared. None of our friends cared or his. We just didn't care. Nobody asked us if he was a girl. We didn't wonder if he was a girl. Why would it even occur to you to ask the bloody question? 'Are you sure he's not a girl' would have been met with 'you think I didn't change his nappy for two years?'

Are you sure he's not a girl' would have been met with 'you think I didn't change his nappy for two years?' - Really made me laugh!

I'm not even slightly surprised the LGB community turned against the transgender couple, Winchester. They're transGENDER - they dress up as stereotypes of their opposite sex. They are not lesbian, gay, bi or in any other way remarkable. Either of them can easily dress up as their own-sex stereotype if they need to evade bigotry. (Or just wear jeans, t-shirts and no makeup, like other heterosexual couples everywhere )
They're not actually facing any struggles or furthering any cause.

Ms Trans on my Facebook has replied "to me it's a persistent internal sense of my sex, it's not about the fact I like makeup or skirts it's my knowledge that my brain tells me I'm female, I know I was born with male genitals does not matter to my brain".

I do believe there's such a thing as sex dysphoria - rare as it is, it seems to have been going on throughout history. I've no idea what I think it is. But I'm very sure that it's rare. It's a whole other thing from not wanting to be thought of as gay, or any other reason for choosing to identify as the "opposite gender".

Yes I accept that people feel dysphoria. But it is a mental illness. That's how we categorise other types of dysphoria. If it genuinely helps people to transition then I'm all for it, but I'm not sure that's the case. I understand why they don't want to be othered but unless they pass completely they are simply never going to be accepted as the opposite sex by the majority of people. If they are attracted to men they are very unlikely to be able to date a straight man. It would have to be a gay man or bisexual man who didn't mind the fact they were trans. They can't force people to find them attractive, even if some abusive arseholes can gaslight and guilt trip young lesbian women into accepting "male lesbians" as sexual partners.

Sex dysphoria is simply an all consuming hatred of your natural body. Very similar, if not the same, to BDD. You long with every fibre of your being for a female body. I imagine those that transition and regret it, regret it because their female bode does not live up to expectations. It does not 'work' properly..as it wouldn't because it is not 'real' but looks similar.

Just had a truly terrible thought. Some parents will be so afraid that if their child presents differently, they'll be targeted by trans trained professionals and encouraged to think it's possible and desirable to change sex. So they do everything they can to ensure their child presents in the gender stereotypes. Pp are right, this is so regressive.

In addition, children bound more tightly into stereotypes are more likely to say they want to be the opposite sex if denied the toys clothes sports etc they want.

This is really pure evil enacted upon children by some very bad people.

Reading someone elses personal experiences with a 'trans' child just gave me a bit of a lightbulb moment which has terrified me when I think about the implications of this.

The part that hit me most was

60 eleven year olds have accepted my kid as a girl - this is the future

Is this the future? Where people can only be themselves i f they are accepted as something they are not, and something that will require a lifetime of hormones and medical treatment to 'become' even close to?

Why is the future not

60 eleven year olds have accepted my kid as a boy who does not adhere to gender stereotypes

Surely being happy your child has been accepted as the opposite sex simply because they chose to 'present' that way is not a good position to be in? We should strive for people to be able to be who they are (even if this doesn't go along with rigid gender roles) without giving them the label of the opposite sex?

If my son chose to wear a dress and have long hair, and was accepted without teasing and such that would be amazing and a step forward for society. If by wearing a dress and having long hair people said he must therefor be a girl, would not accept him as a boy and instead accepted him as a girl...this is surely a step backwards? I would not accept that he actually was a girl and subject him to a lifetime of hormone therapy and such...

Totally agree with you. I understand the reasons for doing it, but I think it's the wrong thing to do and should be resisted.

WankingMonkey that is so true. We should be teaching children to accept everyone as equal. They should know that everyone is allowed to have their own personal interests, likes and dislikes that do NOT depend on their genitalia OR their gender. Instead we seem to be narrowing the acceptable options, to the point where "likes pink, princesses and glitter" equals "girl".

On a personal note, I'm a teacher and I love my job. I should have 20+ years of teaching ahead of me, but I suspect that somewhere in the future I will teach a trans child. That in itself, of course, will be no problem- I treat all children equally, I happily use whatever name they prefer, I can use their 'preferred pronouns'. I can and do value each and every child as a wonderful individual. But if I am expected to say to the other children that 'x is a boy but he was born in a girl's body' or vice versa... Well. I can see myself having to resign from teaching. No doubt the TAs will think 'bloody right, you can't teach children if you're an intolerant transphobe.' But to me, it's a fundamental belief that if you have a penis, you are male. And I don't think it's scaremongering to imagine being in that situation, given that many teachers and schools are already having to work out how to teach the other children about transgender issues.

Radio 4 legal programme says the issue of Trans and prisons is being 'looked at again' - just on now

Hopefully thats a good sign...any more details WW?