Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Atransmum, nobody here would try and get you banned. It's not that kind of place. However, you should be aware that a lot of women here regard being called "cisgender" as misgendering of the same order that trans people do, so it would be good if you could bear that in mind (the reason we think that is that a lot of women do not accept that they have congruence between their sex and their "gender identity" - most of us don't feel we have a gender identity as the description of it usually given seems to many feminists to be a description of one's adherence or otherwise to outdated sex role stereotypes rather than any kind of identity.)

It's good to see an acknowledgement of autogynephilia and fetishtic cross dressing in your post as this is all too often swept under the rug. But this is generally included under the trans umbrella - or the concept of "truscum" wouldn't exist, would it? Do you think that dysphoria is a requirement of a trans identity? How would you have women tell the difference between an autogynephile and a "true" trans women?

What do you think about the areas where trans rights and women's rights conflict? Let's not do bathrooms. How about changing rooms instead - how would you resolve the clash of requirements between women who want sex segregated changing rooms, and transactivists who want gender identity to be the relevant requirement? When you hear women say "I'm afraid that allowing gender identity to trump biological sex will negatively impact women's rights to privacy and protection currently afforded by sex segregation", what do you think? How would you resolve this?

Lorelei, the insurance companies aren't allowed to give women preferential rates based on their statistically safer driving records any more. Because it was sex discrimination.

@ErrolTheDragon - yup, that's the point entirely. Sex and/or gender are highly important facts that still need to be recorded when they are relevant.

Equally 'person has/doesn't have xxx organ' is equally important. Ironically the fact I don't have tonsils is recorded fine. I'm currently going through the lovely paperwork processes right now of changing gender markers etc. and looking forward to my pap smear letter...

@LineyReborn - cisgender isn't meant to be offensive (although I recognise that some militant trans activists have tried using it as an offensive term). It's simply shorthand for 'woman that was assigned female at birth'.

But I wasn't 'assigned' female at birth. I am female. You know nothing of my gender.

And now that I've told you I find 'cis' misidentifying and offensive, will you please stop using it?

Maybe the medical records should have 'gender' or even binary sex replaced by chromosome 23 designation (which will be assumed for many people) - XX, YY or XXY or whatever combinations intersex people can have. Women aren't 'assigned at birth' - our chromosomes are fixed at conception. I knew my DD was a girl before she was born because I had an amnio.

I do hope we don't get too bogged down in terminology (although it does matter) because I'd love to have a constructive discussion on practical solutions to eg the changing room situation.

thanks Errol. I wonder if they build it into metrics behind the scenes though?

agree re Liney on "assigned at birth" - I wasn't assigned, I am female and that's all there is to it.

It's simply shorthand for 'woman that was assigned female at birth'.

No, I disagree. The word for "adult who was once a female baby whose sex was noted at birth" is "woman". No modifier required to make your meaning clear round here

currently we have the situation where trans women are being sent requests for pap smears

Umm ... If they hadn't registered as female, this wouldn't happen, would it.

You lie about yourself, you get services targeted for your false self.

Transvestic fetishists and autogynephiles exist. Trans women are neither.

Are you making a distinction between transwomen, such as yourself, and transgender women? If you aren't, I don't see how you can make this claim with any honesty. And if you are making a distinction, how?

@Felascloak

I think the transgender umbrella is confusing for many people. I run different support groups for people who consider themselves crossdressers/transvestites (and I have trans women attacking me for running that group) compared to trans women. The former group isn't really aimed at transvestic fetishists though (there are plenty of places they can go).

They are different groups, both do fall under the overall 'transgender' umbrella by a lot of definitions and it isn't quite as black and white as some people realise (life seldom is nice and binary). Quite a few trans women identifies as a transvestite in the past and used that to explore their gender further (I'm one of them).

Autogynephila is a little harder to diagnose and this is why we have the gatekeeper system for access to transition in this country. I like the idea of self definition of gender, but do worry that you need to catch co-morbid mental health issues first and deal with those before just randomly giving life-affecting drugs to anyone who thinks they are trans. I think a lot of people agree with that standpoint.

With regards to shared changing spaces what is the concern? If you perceive trans women as being there to spy on you whilst getting changed how do you feel about lesbian women? Do you see trans women as just men trying to get into your changing rooms?

As a trans women I would honestly feel nervous getting changed in any public environment and would rather have a private changing space so no-one could be spying on me as I got changed. This isn't through any shame in my body, it's from other peoples potential reactions and the potential for transphobic attack (verbal or potentially worse).

There is no simple answer to this issue and I do very much see both sides. One of my favourite LGBT nightclubs just has gender neutral toilets with shared wash basins. Private changing spaces and individual showers are the simple solution, but then this creates additional expense for facilities that don't have them (although disabled people have similar requirements, as do some religious groups, so it's not just a trans issue either).

I personally have been accepted into quite a few women's spaces (not changing rooms I hasten to add) and for me as a trans women it has been an incredibly positive and empowering experience and one that I feel grateful for. It has always been done with the consent of other people present and with a lot of hesitation on my behalf. Having non-trans female friends forget that I'm trans is one of the most positive experiences you can have as a trans person.

ATransMum - actually may I pick your brains please?

When did the word "transsexual" change to "transgender" and why? It might just be semantics of course but increasingly I think it's possibly because transsexuals would have had surgery but transgender more likely not?

ATransMum "Do you see trans women as just men trying to get into your changing rooms?"

If they have "self identified" and had no surgery, no hormonal treatment etc then yes, that is a risk.

Lesbians in changing rooms are a red herring.

It's not about someone watching you that you think might fancy you. In the course of my sporting career I've shared dressing rooms with any number of lesbians and never thought twice about it. Sex segregation is about getting changed alongside people with the same bodies that you own. We sex segregate because women need privacy. It's not just about predation. I don't want to see naked penises other than my husband's. When I'm naked and vulnerable, I don't give two hoots for anyone's gender identity.

And there is no way to distinguish a "true" trans woman from a cross dresser. You highlight that yourself in your post...

Let's not get bogged down in terminology otherwise we are going to go around in circles. I freely identify as a trans woman. I'm not 'lying' about my gender. I have been accepted as female by almost everyone I've met so far in my transition without any hassles.

I see the term 'women' as including 'trans women' and some other people don't. Either we find terms that everyone is happy with (this is where 'cisgender' came from originally) or you carry on with the meme that 'trans women are men' which of course I disagree with (disagree is a mild word in this case).

Those are contradictory viewpoints and there is no actual point arguing them to any degree as no-one is going to back down. It also means that we can't discuss the critical points that people want to address. So can we agree to disagree?!?

'It has always been done with the consent of other people present and with a lot of hesitation on my behalf.'

Ah, I think that's an important point. One of the sources of concern women have is that we aren't being asked for our consent by the new wave of self-identified 'transgender' people. Male-bodied people asserting their 'right' to be in a sex-segregated space and calling 'transphobia' if there is any dissent. Unfortunately their voices seem to be louder than people like you at the moment.

The secondary point about changing rooms is that if you spend any time thinking about it, it becomes clear that it's not the sign on the door with the "F" that is meaningful to many transactivists. It's the validation of "belonging" with the female bodies within. And women, whether they have consciously identified this or not, will push back on being the means of validation for anyone under the trans umbrella, because it is never, ever OK to involve strangers in your own personal quest for fulfilment without their express permission.

If you don't want to be lumped in with 'Transvestic fetishists and autogynephiles' what are you (general you - trans people as a group) doing to prevent it happening? Laws are being changed, quietly and rapidly, that allow not only you, but also the transvestic fetishists and autogynephiles, access to female-only spaces, along with any random bloke who fancies a bit of a letch. This makes both women and transwomen unsafe.

Toilets are the spaces that are most often talked about but the issues go far beyond that - changing rooms, hospital wards, DV shelters, homeless shelters, women's support groups, rape crisis centres, prisons ...

ATransMum "Let's not get bogged down in terminology otherwise we are going to go around in circles"

but then how do we know what we are talking about?

You identify as a trans woman - but I don't know what that means and how can we discuss it without that knowledge?

My main concern is that sex offenders will exploit self identification laws to abuse women (mainly voyeurs but I'm sure flashers, paedophiles and other sex offenders will also be delighted). At the moment if I see a male presenting person in a female space (like a gym changing room) I can challenge them and get security involved if necessary. With new proposed rules I wouldn't be able to do this unless he had comminted a crime. In fact if i did and the person said they "felt like a woman" I would potentially be the one being talked to by security for a hate crime. Given the lengths we know sex offenders go to to commit crime (which is why we have specific grooming laws now) I think this is a real risk.
I don't worry about lesbians in women's spaces mainly because they are women. But also because I've never been groped, catcalled, assaulted or abused by one. I've never even seen anything I could interpret as a "checking out" by a woman. This happens all the time when men are around. And I'd like to point out here I am responding specifically to your questions about lesbians, when I talk about men I don't mean transwomen.
Why do you think self identification doesn't put women at risk from sex offenders? (Again, not trans women but perverts claiming to be transferred to access women)

Transexual is still used (told you it was confusing). I don't like the term and the conflation is with sexuality.

Gender identity and sexuality are totally unrelated things. Transexual interlinks the two (just think sapiosexual, demisexual or homosexual). That's why it's falling out of use.

Transexuals used to be split into 'pre op' and 'post op' (hopefully I don't need to explain those terms) which is also falling out of favour as well. Disclosing which operations a trans person has or hasn't had isn't something that should be done unless there is an intimate or medical need.

Most modern documentation and guidance uses transgender. Although the term is used for the umbrella (which includes everything). Personally I use 'trans woman' or 'trans man' to identify people who have or are transitioning.

For me a cross dresser using a women's changing room isn't appropriate either. A trans woman who is on hormone therapy and well into her transition process (i.e. living full time female) could consider it. But again I wouldn't be forcing that on other people - I'm conscious of how other people react and understand that me being naked in a changing room in front of women not only might upset them, it also puts me at risk as well.

Differentiating the two isn't that simple however - as the line isn't quite so black and white. Some trans women don't take hormones or plan any surgery. And I know some cross dressers that have amazingly high degrees of 'passing privilege'.

So like I said there isn't an easy answer to this issue. Forcing women to open up their spaces to us through legislation has created backlash against trans women - I don't feel that is the right approach. Letting people see us as who we are and having them invite us in is a much better approach. But also being conscious of their feelings throughout that process.

Our goal should to be able to live our lives in the gender we choose. To educate people that all we want is respect and the right pronouns (and perhaps decent employment chances that don't involve the sex industry).

ATransMum, thanks for that.

so how do you feel about self identification?

ATransMum

As far as I am aware, gender isn't recorded on anything, sex is. Driving licenses and such, its sex because of how you would need to be treated if in an accident, same with medical records as treatments are different for different sexes.

I am well aware that the whole 'bathroom debate' is brought around by men who want access to women. I have said before that until this rabid TA stuff started, noone really gave a crap. It is when we are expected to accept obvious men as women in every sense that the problem starts. I know this decision is fuck all to do with you, but a fantastic starting point for more acceptance would be for genuine transsexual people to distance themselves from the obvious autogynephiles. This means, reclaim your own word for one. Transsexual (dysphoria and such) is miles different to transgender (a 'feeling' in ones head) and it really should be seen as that.

A genderles society is already here really. If you explain exactly what 'non-binary' is to people, they would identify as such. Noone I know identifies as fully 'female' or 'male' on the gender scale...at all. People have a mix of traits. This whole 'identify as a woman means you are a woman' stuff is just...bringing 'gender' boxes smaller..by saying you cannot simply be who you are. Saying you must really be the opposite sex because of how you 'feel' is not allowing yourself to just be yourself to me?

Transexual is still used (told you it was confusing). I don't like the term and the conflation is with sexuality.

The word has nothing to do with sexuality though? Its about biology?

I also do not agree with 'being assigned' a sex at birth. You aren't, you simply ARE one sex or the other. Gender is different, gender is your personality and a fuckton of socialization that is based on your SEX not your 'identity'? I guess I cannot understand how anyone can identify as the opposite sex when you don't even know how the opposite sex feels.

I am female. Or assigned female at birth if you will. I don't 'feel' female...I just feel like me? I have a female body that can do things females can. But thats where it ends...

With regards to shared changing spaces what is the concern? If you perceive trans women as being there to spy on you whilst getting changed how do you feel about lesbian women? Do you see trans women as just men trying to get into your changing rooms?

I believed I answered this as deeply as I can in a post just over the page. noone thinks transwomen are going to spy on them. But biological females are naturally at risk from biological males, which is why we have seperate facilities based on sex (not gender) to being with. Yes there is nothing really stopping a guy going into rape someone. But this isn't the point. many many women have been abused by men and thus have reason to fear men (all men, though they realise not all men are actually a threat) and as such, they should surely be entitled to have some kind of space AWAY from men, especially when at vulnerable times such as being in a state of undress.

Differentiating the two isn't that simple however - as the line isn't quite so black and white. Some trans women don't take hormones or plan any surgery.

This is the main part I cannot understand. If you 'identify' that strongly with the opposite sex that you want to be 'seen as' one of them, surely it makes no sense to simply remain the way you are and expect everyone else to bend THEIR views. If you are truly miserable as your birth (not assigned at birth, just birth) sex then I just cannot get my head around simply saying...fuck this biology doesn't matter, biological differences don't matter, I am opposite and everyone should accept that?

Apologies if any of my posts come over harsh, I don't mean them to. I see people like yourself as a LOT different to those who simply 'identify' and its the self identification stuff I feel is the issue right now.