Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

The student I teach always came across as painfully uncomfortable in his skin before he transitioned. I know that's vague but I can't really put it into words. I just thought he was an awkward teenager. He's a different person now.

I think it's wonderful he feels so much better now being able to express who he truly is. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that trans people should not exist, or lead miserable existences. What gender critical people actually want is a society where gender stereotypes are thrown out the window. Where men can wear dresses and make up and high heels without ridicule. Where women can have buzz cuts if that's their taste, and not be abused for it.

What we are not so keen on is, that when people do all that gender non conforming (because we know they already do, obviously!), they aren't told "that makes you a man, and you are a man because of your feelings" and allowed to indulge in a delusion which potentially leads to dangerous medical interventions and surgeries. Especially when it starts in childhood. We want them to be supported to express themselves in their own skin without encroaching on women's spaces, believing their biology can be defined by feelings, perpetuating depressing stereotypes and trying to correctively rape lesbians. I have known TW (who haven't had bottom surgery, 100% understandable and I don't think all trans people should if they don't want to) who crack on with life using gender neutral toilets, respecting members of the opposite sex and very much knowing they are not women, but transwomen. I personally believe the majority of TW are like this, but the attitudes of others (whose misogynist cause seems to be growing and are not always trans) is affecting so many women in a negative way in so many pockets of society, that it would be a crime for feminists to sit back and ignore it for the sake of not upsetting people. They are a small but very, vocal influential yet dangerous group, changing laws to erase women's safe spaces and no-platforming lesbians who don't want to suck their 'lady pensies' (among many things).

perhaps not all women attach as much importance to the owership of the term 'woman' as you do?

I bet my bottom dollar that if more women knew about these issues they would see it as important

Why is it so hard to accept that someone else's experience might be completely unfathomable to you, and why is it so hard to accept that the fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't real?

Good question. Why can some people here not understand that there are women who do not feel comfortable with penis in their spaces and who want women-only spaces?

Why is it so hard to accept that the fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't real?

I only use "AFAB women" in discussions like this where it's necessary to be absolutely clear. I use "trans women" in the same discussions - it is purely for clarity.

In normal, real life, I am a woman. My partners have all been women. I was brought up by a single woman and my remaining family are all women. The wellbeing of women is fundamentally important to me. My experience and identity as a woman is not diminished, eradicated or even threatened by the fact that trans women exist, and being an "ally" to trans people does not diminish my feminism.

VestalVirgin - if you read back in the thread you will see that I do understand and sympathise with those views.

Nobody is offering a solution to the problem. We are all just spinning round in the same cycle of discourse. Hey ho.

But do you think AFAB people have the right to organise politically and have spaces free of AMAB people? Regardless of how we are labelled.

Please come back and answer a question Nat

'I don't know, but you are wrong and heartless', does not cut it.

I used to assume that everything to do with trans people was backed up by a lot of robust science and philosophy - that everything was settled and sorted and all the complexities had been worked out, and what trans activists were demanding must obviously be completely reasonable or they wouldn't be demanding it. I used to wince when reading threads here that talked about transwomen being a subset of men - I thought that was really provocative and confrontational and a bit nasty.

I've since come to realise how much of the whole trans story and narratives and political demands are based on shaky foundations. I no longer automatically trust that every demand must be reasonable and that I should automatically support it (some are of course). This despite having FTM friends that I care about and who I want to have happy lives. I now see statements like 'transwomen are a subset of men' as a truth we should be allowed to state in appropriate contexts. (You can also say they are a subset of people who wear dresses or people who perform femininity, so it's not like that's all they are). This doesn't mean I hate trans people or wish them harm.

7-days - so sorry, I can't remember what I said but I don't think I meant to attack you. What was your question? As I saod before I'm not really qualified to answer ut I can give you my view. I really must get to bed in a minute so it may be in the morning...

Nat: I disagree with so very much of what you've said but I respect the fact that you have stuck around when almost everyone posting is on some level of disagreement with you.

I was wrong when I predicted that you would disappear and I'm very glad that I was wrong.

Refractalicious - Of course, if the issue demands it. Reproductive rights, medical/health care issues. Issues of gendered violence. Etc. All of those can be specific to AFAB women, as trans women have their own specific experiences. I think you'd struggle to find a trans woman who asserts their experiences are identical to ours, unless you read only hyperbolic examples online - Ada Wells for example. It doesn't mean we aren't fighting the same patriarchy.

I've already stated how conflicted I am about women-only public spaces like changing rooms, loos etc, and that I have no solution. That said, every public pool I visit has unisex (cubicled) changing areas now. Schools are a difficult issue. As I mentioned before, I have been assaulted in the past by men in public spaces. I wouldn't wish to increase the chances of it happening to anyone else and I will never feel comfortable with men in those spaces. However the rational portion of my brain also informs me that not all men are rapists. That same portion of brain also tells me that (probably all) trans women are only seeking the same safety in female-only spaces.

Perhaps it's down to my personal experiences as part of the LGBT community - there aren't that many of us, so we (in my experience) bind ourselves together. I find it hard to consider leaving trans people to fend for themselves.

Thank you Winchester. It's been an interesting discussion. Apologies if my language has been colourful and my tone aggressive at times. I'm not always great at articulating myself and I haven't had answers for a lot of the questions I have been asked. I can only draw on the experiences of the trans people I know.

Some might say that's as much due to our socialisation as women to be accommodating problem solvers. I have similar personal experiences and am naturally drawn towards the 'solidarity' option too. But women are a real group too. (I obviously prefer 'women' to 'AFAB' but in asking the question about whether AFABs have the right to organise and keep separate spaces I wanted to avoid people saying 'of course women can but obviously that includes transwomen'.) I don't think if women set boundaries that has to equate to leaving trans people to fend for themselves.

Lozza "It doesn't mean we aren't fighting the same patriarchy."

In some ways trans women seem to be patriarchal.

I'm not suggesting trans people aren't supported but the separate spaces according to genitalia is my line in the sand, however inelegant it sounds.

How do you mean, Lorelei?

I wish someone would explain how it feels to be a woman?
I can't without talking about my biologically female body so I'm interested in how someone else can.

The only way anyone can ever do this is by resorting to incredibly sexist, shallow stereotypes.

*I wish someone would explain how it feels to be a woman?

I can't without talking about my biologically female body so I'm interested in how someone else can.

The only way anyone can ever do this is by resorting to incredibly sexist, shallow stereotypes.*

No, I just think it's just a bit of a stupid question. We all (apparently) feel like women (I don't think there are any men posting on this thread?). Good. No dysphoria here. Lucky us.

No, I just think it's just a bit of a stupid question. We all (apparently) feel like women (I don't think there are any men posting on this thread?). Good. No dysphoria here. Lucky us.

Many trans have no dysphoria about their body. Doesn't prove anything, apparently.

So, how can I know I feel like a woman? I could also feel like a nonbinary, or a man with vagina and breasts.

I honestly don't understand why you would want to make the life of a transitioning person more difficult.

Anyone who holds this view, surely sees no need for female only safe spaces in the first place? Given we should just allow any male in to make them feel more comfortable? Which is fair enough if that is your view, but its certainly not mine.

No, I just think it's just a bit of a stupid question. We all (apparently) feel like women (I don't think there are any men posting on this thread?). Good. No dysphoria here. Lucky us.

I do not feel like a woman. I am a woman.

I have BDD.

I don't think there is any definitive 'feeling' / you just are. All your genes and chromosomes make you a female being. They make your female reproductive system, they make all the intricate hormonal balances that make us tick and 'work' the way nature designed us to.

That's the very heart of being a woman - not 'feelings'. That's why you can take medication to try and replicate it but you will never come close as its in your very DNA structure.

Ok, this is getting really repetitive. Off to bed.

"I think I would go to HR and tell them that a male employee is using the women's toilets. I wouldn't even mention trans.

Be very clear that the issue is maleness not transness. (If pushed I would state that I have no issue with transmen using female facilities - that this is nothing to do with the person being trans.)

If HR try to tell you that the person is female ask them how that can be when you can hear them peering standing up using their penis. I would also ask HR to guarantee (they can't) that this person is not in anyway getting voyeuristic pleasure from being in women's space whilst they perform bodily functions.

I think unfortunately you won't get anywhere but I would want to say something on principle. Sorry that you are in this position. This is going to happen more and more unfortunately."

Beachcomber if I did this then I am afraid to say my cards would be marked. I think I would be sacked for being discriminatory.

Lozza, I feel that whoever is saying we aren't entitled to a biological female space is patriarchal
Allocating gender stereotypes to a biological sex is patriarchal
Many people, men, women, trans, do this

In relation to this, telling women they have to accept someone with a penis in a bathroom that was meant for people with vaginas, is patriarchal.

If we are dealing with feelings and not biology, then i feel gender non binary.