Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

What is a man? Somebody who identifies as an adult male I suppose.

So DNA has SFA to do with it then?! Great. I identify as Zorro and I DEMAND the right to carry and use my sword at all times

(stamps feet like a petulant child)

It usually comes out as all the gender stereotyped things though Nat. Boys sports, good at maths, wants boys as mates, or wearing dresses, liking dolls, painting nails. Superficial stuff you can just (I would have thought) ignore or indulge as one pleases. You don't have to go telling people - that means you're not a girl, or not a boy. You can say - ok well, they make bovver boots in women's sizes, knock yourself out.

Surely it must be more than that?

natweb how can someone be female, and yet not be female?

Sorry, should have added, were they intersex?

Yes Hermione

I'm Cunticus Spartacus

I haven't read the full thread (over 650 messages) but to be honest I don't know why cubicle loos need to be gendered. More and more I am coming across unisex loos in the workplace and 'family' changing rooms at swimming pools etc. It doesn't bother me at all.

Not sure how I would feel about an open shower situation though.

Bloody hell, how many clichés from apparently intelligent women?! I can assure you that the female to male student I currently teach didn't make this decision because she played rugby and wore hob nail boots. I can't believe the shit I'm reading. My 4 year old boy has taken to dancing and has a penchant for musical theatre. Better start saving for the surgery I suppose...

Disclaimer: i refer to 'she' as I refer to pre-transition.

Er Nat we did ask you why and you are refusing to tell us. One looks at accounts of trans people and they say all this superficial cliche stuff is a market. One looks at 'tests' for markers and they are about hugging people and parking.

That's what we're saying. There be more to it than this?

But for some unfathomable reason you won't tell us.

5 stone Anorexic with fervent belief she is fat = delusional on the grounds that it can be objectively proven she is not fat
person who believes they can fly if they jump off tall buildings = delusional on the grounds that it can be objectively proven that they lack the aerodynamics.
Male person who believes they are a is really delusional on account of the fact that they are none of those things.

You see what I did there? I used the definition of woman in place of the word.
There is no other way of being a woman.

If you support the idea of completely redefining the word woman then I'm going to be left with literally no word to describe myself and the people like me

Hint, as there are billions of us and we are all universally denied our rights to some degree globally, the could do with a name, and the right to be grouped with other for the purposes of dignity and bodily privacy, if that's ok.

market = marker ie a marker for trans

also 'there MUST be more to it than this' - I left out must

natweb can't you just answer questions without being stroppy? You are the one who is volunteering the information about people that you know.
When you post about someone who was physically female but 'obviously not female' it's only natural that people are going to be curious about what you mean by 'obviously not female'.

I can't give you a sweeping generalisation because Newsflash trans people are individuals with very individual stories.

I'm just aghast at the ignorance, sorry.

So why do so all so many trans people talk about the cliches and stereotypes as markers for trans?

hairy I see you are also very cunty

But I don't know if we're still allowed to use the word "cunt", because as we all know, it's only TW that have vaginas. The boring bleeders and breeders have a "front hole"

WTAF

Hairy - you crack on with that. I'll continue to be confortable with trans women identifying as female. I really can't bring myself to get too wound up about it.

Perhaps we should have Spartacus part II where we sign in and say "I'm cuntish"

In the meantime, a sardonic Wonka for nat

It's not ignorance actually - it's the opposite - it's being well read across the internet about trans accounts, parents' trans accounts etc. This is what they talk about. And you say it's not that at all. In fact you're aghast at the suggestion it's that. I hope you're posting on all these trans people's accounts telling them how aghast you are. You're getting it second hand from me, that's for sure. I think girls boys men women can wear whatever they want, I don't care. Stereotypes are stereotypes - not markers for sex. But this is what trans people talk about.

No one in this thread has advocated "front-hole" or "non-men" rhetoric.

Bloody hell, how many clichés from apparently intelligent women?! I can assure you that the female to male student I currently teach didn't make this decision because she played rugby and wore hob nail boots.

So why did they look to trans as the way of being happy with themselves?

It's all still a bit wooly. What does female mean in the context you describe? If you're getting this angry about the topic, then you must have some sense of what we're talking about. Otherwise, it's just about feelings and, unfortunately, feelings aren't facts.

Sex dysmorphia must be horrendous and I wholeheartedly support treatment, just like with body dysmorphia or anorexia. Gender dysmorphia, not so much. I would prescribe lots of feminist reading and getting behind those of us who have been trying to break down gender stereotypes for years. Not just erasing the definition of a class of people who have been violently discriminated against because of their biology without even a discussion.

This is actually a debate that should be happening between men. Convenient for the patriarchy that Feminism has largely been taken over by transwomen and their allies and so the hard questions about men are not being asked any more, even when their violence is used as an underpin for allowing transwomen into women's private spaces.

You've spoken to all of 'them' and they've all agreed with you Winchester? Remarkable. I stand corrected.