Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

nat so you agree that transwomen should have their own 'safe spaces' and not be entitled to enter women only spaces?
Nothing 'cuntish' about saying that, is there?

Kua - I said society needs to find a solution. Stop thinking that I'm attacking women for goodness sake. There really is a lot of over zealous mouth frothing in this forum

NatI have only stated facts and asked questions of you of which you have yet to answer.

Hermione - there you go again. 'Validate men's delusions'. We're on completely different pages which is why I suggested much earlier on that I leave the conversation. Apparently that was 'flouncing'.

Obviously if a transuman want to use the male changing rooms that's accepted though. Right? eat yer hat

Men commit almost all violent and sexual crime. That isn't hate talk, it's fact.

natwebb79

Define "trans woman" in such a way that gives a watertight, non-tautological legal distinction between them and other XY chromosomed people, such that the latter group could be legally barred from women-only spaces. Bearing in mind that 40% of females have experienced male violence and need spaces away from men where they are vulnerable (toilets in bus stations, communal showers, prisons, refuges, homeless shelters etc). A lack of a clear distinction gives all XY people access to women-only space and would have huge ramifications for women's safety. When women do not have access to safe sanitation areas, their rights to movement and full participation are limited to a couple of hours radius from their home. Meaning they cannot carry out basic activities in society like going to work, school, leisure centre, socialising, shopping etc. The social history of women's public WCs was a huge advance for women's liberation, because women were assured safety when attending to nature away from home. The push for self identification gender access is a huge step backwards, because there's no way to discern between a genuine transgender woman and a man exploiting the self identity loophole for nefarious purposes.

Also, have you watched this you tube video linked to earlier, which lists male attacks on women in vulnerable spaces that would be allowed under self identification laws

I suppose national et all accept this Too? Poor her/him/them

🙄

Noeffing - if they are comfortable with that then yes. If not then the issue needs to be considered further. Hermione's comment about transgender being 'men's delusions' was an example of the cuntishness I described.

all this hate talk towards men is just as bad as what women faced years ago and now in certain ways too

WTAF? No. No it isn't. It really REALLY isn't.

National = nat

Feminism is about women's rights not equality with men.
equality with men would be women adopting a "many men act like shits and trample over other women's rights because they are safe in an 'I'm alright, Jack' way - so Im gonna be like that too "attitude.

Which misconception explains the presence of certain posters on this board doing precisely that, I suppose.

natweb if who is comfortable?
Either the issue is safety, or it isn't.

natwebb79 Can you have a crack at the "what is a man?" question?

I have spent years asking variations on that question to transpeople and trans supporters and have never had an answer. I see that you have a very strong affinity and understanding of trans issues, so must be able to shed some light.

I am truly asking this in the spirit of enquiry, because (as I said earlier) I am struggling to understand what I am if not a woman. And if I am a woman and so is Soldier Chloe, then what do we call the group of which I am also a part which is to do with my reproductive potential?

Lozzie: the figures are meaningless - does the rise of 44 per cent echo the rise in the number of transgender individuals? For example, referrals to the transgender clinic of children and young people have risen four fold. If the number of transgender people has doubled, and the number of transgender assaults has risen by fifty per cent, then the rate of transphobic crime has actually fallen.

Your stats also include robbery and burglary by the way, and the 80 per cent unrecorded figure is not I believe from the police but from a pro-transgender charity. I don't trust figures coming from someone whose income depends on the figures being believed on trust.

What is a man? Somebody who identifies as an adult male I suppose. I know men born as male and trans men for whom it was obvious from a very young age that they were not female despite being born that way and have had treatment to correct that.

Can't have that. Can't have adult male in the definition.

For example:
I've got a flipbongbumptifut at home.
What's a flipbongbumptifut?
Well it's anything that identifies as a flipbongbumptifut.

So Nat do you now know anything about what a flipbongbumptifut is? I suspect not.

So you need to give a definition of male that covers the necessary and sufficient conditions to satisfy maleness. The marker for maleness, if you like.

Lorelei - sorry I missed your post, struggling to keep up with the thread.

Self ID? Exceptionally complicated. Again, no answers.

Should everyone who identifies as trans make themselves known to medical professionals? They have to if they want to medically transition, unless they go down the dangerous road of procuring hormones online etc. Surgery would be a no-no.

Should every trans person be forced to medically transition if they want to use the facilities for the gender that they identify with? That sounds a little bit like what happens in Iran where they force gay men to transition. Dystopian. Grim.

Should they carry official ID that confirms their medically certified status as a trans person? Well crikey.

The answer is that society needs to grow the fuck up about gender and sexual identity. I personally believe that all feminists should be powering towards that. It's probably a case of waiting for people to stop being shits to people they don't identify with or don't understand. It hasn't happened yet with disability. It hasn't happened yet with LGB people. Still waiting.

And, while it is one example, and a rarity, of course I don't believe that someone who is clearly comfortable enough with the physical characteristics of their birth gender to have a full beard and no desire to feminise has any business being naked in a female changing room. That person is in no immediate danger in a male changing room.

natweb so being a man/woman is just a case of identifying as one or the other, then, IYO.
So where does biology come into it then? You know, little things like chromosomes, differences in anatomy and physiology, etc etc.

I know men born as male and trans men for whom it was obvious from a very young age that they were not female despite being born that way and have had treatment to correct that

What exactly are they correcting? Why would they need to correct anything?!

Lozzie if they identify so powerfully with women then they know that women don't want dicks in private female spaces. So they shouldn't even want access. But they do, and they expect it. Because men.

Do you honestly think they would go through all of that shit if they didn't need to? Do you think the same about gay men? Is it not all a bit silly in your mind seeing as the penis is designed to enter the vagina and enable procreation? It's not really for you to understand (and you seem determined to dismiss it as a bit of a silly fad) is it?

Ask them, Joan. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to enlighten you.

If knowing that men aren't women is "cuntish" I'm happy to wear that badge.

I also know that Stefonknee isn't a 6 year old girl. That makes me double cuntish I suppose.