Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

I really really think that many people who think women should let men with gender dysphoria into intimate female spaces overestimate how many of these men have their penis removed and underestimate how many of them practice autogynephilia.

I think they probably also underestimate how many of them are turned on by women.

Because I really can't imagine that many women are perfectly happy with people with penises and who are sexually excited by women being in intimate female space with girls and women in a state of undress / performing bodily functions.

The transwoman used to justify the compromising of sex segregated spaces is always the poor suicidal post op person who fancies men. It's never the autogynephile who gets off on wearing women's underwear and masturbating to the fantasy of themselves as female. And yet both exist and the law does not differentiate.

www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/06/11/what-kind-of-woman-is-caitlyn-jenner-part-one-of-a-qa-on-autogynephilia-with-michael-bailey/

Why should women give up the space that is designed and labelled for their safety and privacy?

Why are men not forced to behave better and not be violent or abusive to TW who use the male toilets?

Answer: Because men make the rules and women should be quiet and accept them. Because men would voice the opinion that it makes them feel uncomfortable and they would be listened to.
Women on the other hand are called names and silenced.

In my experience TW don't necessarily want to use female toilets due to fear of attack in men's toilets. They want to use them as they identify and live as a woman. A man attacking a TW in a toilet would be punished if caught like with any other crime.

Hairy - I have an opinion of course but the reasoning should come from the horse's mouth in order for it to be fully understood. I am not going to speak on their behalf when the issue is so complex.

lynda

And WhenSheWasBad - DW Sports gym near me has one changing room. All the rest of the changing area is open plan. Who should be in the changing room? I find it surprising that you are happy to expose you and your daughter to random penises

Why so surprised about me allowing my daughter to be exposed to random penises.
If you went to see the statue of David with a small child would you want his penis covered? It's just a penis.

So if the law allows anyone who identifies as a woman into female toilets and changing areas. Identifies as and when they want with nothing to back it up.

What is stopping the same men who would attack a transwoman in male toilets walking into female toilets and doing it there?

The statue of David is inanimate.

Beachcomber - many men including my husband and most of my male friends are sexually attracted to women but they would all manage to take a pee in a locked cubicle next to a woman taking a pee in another locked cubicle without getting a semi. This thread is the equivalent of saying that no Muslims should be allowed on planes because many Muslims have committed suicide attacks so it wouldn't be fair on other passengers who fear such attacks to allow them on. That qould be penalising the innocent majority for the actions of a minority.

In my experience TW don't necessarily want to use female toilets due to fear of attack in men's toilets. They want to use them as they identify and live as a woman. A man attacking a TW in a toilet would be punished if caught like with any other crime.

So why on earth does their validation trump our genuine and well-grounded fear of physical and sexual attack?

This thread is the equivalent of saying that no Muslims should be allowed on planes because many Muslims have committed suicide attacks.

It really isn't. For example, the majority of non-Muslims have not suffered attacks at the hands of Muslims. Most women however have been sexually assaulted, groped, harassed, and worse.

Why is your fear of sexual attack (which could happen anywhere) trump a TW right to live their life as a woman when that is what every fibre of their being is telling them they are?

Because I might be sexually attacked ? Or my daughter might be? Or any other woman might be. I mean, obviously you don't care about that. Obviously you think men feeling better about themselves is more important than women being attacked.

Brave new world indeed.

"Most women have been sexually assaulted"

Really? And even if this is true, why assume hat the next penis owner you happen to come into contact with is a sex offender? It depresses me that my sons are going to grow up with people assuming they want to use their penis as a weapon to attack women.

Beachcomber - many men including my husband and most of my male friends are sexually attracted to women but they would all manage to take a pee in a locked cubicle next to a woman taking a pee in another locked cubicle without getting a semi.

Sure. How many of those men masturbate to the idea of themselves as women?

I think toilets need to be renamed as Penis & Non-Penis rather than male or female. That way it doesn't matter at all what gender someone identifies as but comes down to basic physicality.

I have no problem whatsoever in sharing a bathroom or any other kind of changing room with other people who don't have penises, regardless of whether they were born with one or not. I do however have an issue with being expected to share toilet & / or shower facilities with someone who has a penis regardless of what gender they consider themselves to be.

Do you live your life saying "I might be murdered" or "I might be mugged"? Shit things MIGHT happen but bloody hell, the women on this thread seem to.have 'be suspicious of all men!!' as thrir factory setting. Hopefully in 50 years time people will look back at threads like this and laugh at the hysteria over what is essentially a person allowed to take a piss in a lockable cubicle. Anyone would think she was whipping it out and doing penis puppetry.

Why is your fear of sexual attack (which could happen anywhere) trump a TW right to live their life as a woman when that is what every fibre of their being is telling them they are?

Why do their needs trump mine?
Why are they mot fighting for their own space? Why are they not fighting for safety away from men?

Why must my space me so accesdible and my safety be put at risk all because bob decides he is Jane and now i have no rights and my feelings dont matter?

The statue of David is inanimate

Fine, but what is wrong with dh taking my five year old daughter to the men's toliets. She may well see a man peeing - so what?
How is this damaging my child?

This thread is the equivalent of saying that no Muslims should be allowed on planes because many Muslims have committed suicide attacks so it wouldn't be fair on other passengers who fear such attacks to allow them on. That qould be penalising the innocent majority for the actions of a minority exactly.

Men are responsible for the vast majority of muggings should we have female only streets? Preventing someone using a toilet will not stop them raping someone if that's what they want to do. we should be concentrating on increasing rape reporting and conviction rates and get some of these men in jail and not hiding from them in female only spaces.

Beachcomber - I don't know. I'm sure there are many people who wank over all sorts of crap I wouldn't understand but I'm not sure how that's your business when they're popping into a cubicle for a quick pee and buggering off again? The assumption that all TW are predatory fetishist sexual devients is starting to wear thin now.

Natwebb: If I'm walking alone on a dark street, or when I walk the dog, or if I'm in a hotel corridor alone, and a lone man moves in to view, no one else about, yes I do think I might be attacked. When I'm going to the loo and getting my knickers down, no I don't. Because there aren't any men around.

So if I was in the loo, or a changing room or shower, and there was a lone man there, and no one else about, yes I would automatically get between them and the door and bloody leave as soon as possible. If I was naked in the shower and a naked man got in the shower and there was no one else about I'd be fucking terrified.

So your dismissiveness can fuck off FOREVER

If you think that Bob wakes up one morning and decides to live as Jane for shits and giggles then you need to educate yourself. It's not your 'needs', it's your 'fears'. What you fear shouldn't penalise Jane when she's more than likely an innocent party.

Natwebb79 you lose all credibility when you advocate to remove women's rights to refuse entry of male people to their personal space but you won't give any rationale for this or explain your stance.

Plus your Muslim analogy is embarrassing.

Here's one for you. Denying entry of a male person to a female space is more like denying David Cameron membership to the young black women socialists group.
because he isn't young, black, female,or a socialist, do you see? It's not denying him his rights because you unfairly imagine he represents middle aged, white, Tory men. You aren't unfairly applying a stereotype that he doesn't deserve.

You would be acting entirely appropriately in excluding him from that group because he in no way fits the criteria of that group.

MTT people have nothing material in common with women that makes sense of why they should share intimate space like toilets and showers.

natwebb is your argument that we should do away with sex-segregated spaces altogether? That would at least be a logical position, although I can't imagine many women going for it (or men, really).

Preventing someone using a toilet will not stop them raping someone if that's what they want to do

Of course it wont but i will make damn sure not to give them even more space to commit sexual crimes.