Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

Crystal15
do women have the right to exclude men (those who aren't trans) from women's spaces? If so, why?
Can you tell us what MTT and women have in common that makes MTT different from men and the same as women?

It's otherwise impossible to debate sensibly without understanding WHY you think all MTT and all women should be considered the same.

Have you read the thread Crystal?

Hermione: hard to google as 'woman voyeur sentenced' brings up story after story of 'voyeur' 'sentenced' for filming 'woman'.

I'm not Spartacus (and said so on the thread). And I don't have a problem with sharing facilities with transwomen. And I have been raped before anyone suggests I'm lucky not to fear men or whatever.

But many women do not want to share facilities and I understand why; and I have to prioritise their wishes over the wishes of a small number of TW.

WW almost as if it's men that film women, not lesbians!

I shall return my "lesbian repellant spray" immediately. I thought it was doing the job of keeping me safe from hoardes of predatory lesbians, but it turns out that women just don't commit sexual violence at the same rate as men!

Still Spatacus.

They cannot feel like women because they have no concept of what it feels like to be a woman. All they can feel like in "not men".

Surgery will not make them into women but if it makes them more comfortable with their bodies I'm happy for them.

But pre-op transwomen need to keep their penises out of women-only spaces.

Even if men weren't responsible for almost all sexual crime there still would be the inconvenient argument that women have a right to privacy and dignity.

Telling a woman not to fuss because she won't get hurt doesn't cut it.

I wouldn't get naked in front of random men, EVEN if I was behind bloody bulletproof glass because I believe I deserve the right to bodily privacy and dignity.

The justifiable fear of the risk posed by men is a valid argument, but it is not the only argument.

I don't think you need to worry. She's probably just like the rest of us -rush in, do our business, wash &dry our hands and leave. What are you so worried about?

Tbh I think both your points are rediculous. Men and women both commit crimes in public toilets and changing areas fact. Your not safe just because women only use it or none transgender women. Look at the playboy model who took photos of that lady in the shower and body shamed her online.

You share toilets with lesbians, are you afraid they will rape you

Erm a lesbian cannot rape me as she does not have a penis.
She can sexually assult me but considering the higher percentage of sexual assults against women are committed by men with penises i would feel pretty safe with a lesbian.

Even if men weren't responsible for almost all sexual crime there still would be the inconvenient argument that women have a right to privacy and dignity.

Exactly.

Hairy - try asking a trans woman. You know, speaking to one as opposed to speaking about them as if they are part of one species who all behave and think the same way.

REPEATS TILL BLUE IN THE FACE: THE STATISTICS MATTER TOO. Yes, women commit sexual offences too. No, they do not commit them in anything approaching the numbers men do - they are rare.

Sexual offences carried out by men on the other hand are very common.

American forensic psychologist David Lisak has spent his career studying campus rape - he finds on questionnaires that describe acts which meet the legal definition of rape, 1 in 16 men will self identify as rapists. 1 in 16. Stop and think about that for a moment, before you dismiss "not wanting penises in female spaces" as ridiculous.

I'm pretty horrified by this thread.

Trans people are often incredibly vulnerable and go through awful mental suffering - rates of suicide and violence against them are sky high. Hate the posting of a few mtf with beards as if they were the rule.

Seriously have some empathy.

But women are vulnerable too. Almost any male bodied person is capable of physically overpowering me and doing violence to me if they choose to. LIke many women, I fear being in enclosed or quiet spaces with men I don't know - lifts and empty corridors in hotels late at night are particularly unsettling for me.

I know I need to be afraid of men because I've been sexually assaulted twice by strange men, and because common sense tells me if they choose to exploit an opportunity to assault me a) there is nothing I can physically do about it b) I effectively have no recourse to the law because I either won't be believed or I'll be blamed for being assaulted.

If I walked into a loo and saw someone I perceive as male it wouldn't be unreasonable - for someone with my lived experiences - to turn around and leave immediately. And not feeling safe to use public loos would curtail my freedom and ability to be out in public space. And why the hell is that OK?

Men and women both commit crimes in public toilets and changing areas fact

Got some stats there? Do link.

saying "fact" after a ridiculous (that's how you spell it by the way) assertion doesn't it make it true. Just so you're aware.

The moon is made of cheese. Fact.

(See how that doesn't work?)

can you please not appropriate intersex people to justify the argument that men should have access to women's spaces why not? This thread is using the same handful of overly publicised cases of trans people commiting sexual crime to prove their point.
People keep asking for a definition of female and I'm stating there is no clear definition.

Because intersex people don't like it and some of them actually deplore it.

I didn't comment on the Spartacus thread because of the vibe of these threads but I feel someone has to say something.

There is a clear definition.

Woman: adult human of the sex that can produce eggs and bear young.

So there we are.

ThatsWot

Because intersex don't like it

And also, what do you think of leaving a big massive loophole to allow more cases like those over publicised cases of tw committing crimes?

Or do you think it won't happen in any significant numbers?
Research has shown that tw continue committing violent and sexual crime as born men.

God so many typos - hope you understand what I'm getting at

Again, to all those who think women are being nasty hysterical bigot regarding males in their loos - where do you draw a line - do you have one at all?

Okay, here's a first person complaint about the appropriation of my medical history for you. Not content with appropriating the medical history of intersex people, the transactivist community now wants to artificially inflate the numbers of people they count as intersex by including anyone with a disorder of their sex hormones. That includes women with PCOS. I have seen the organiser of the Michigan women's music festival harrassed online and accused of internalised transphobia because "he [sic] is a transman" because she (correct pronoun, both biologically and in terms of what she would choose for herself) has PCOS.

That's right. Apparently women with PCOS are intersex, and should self identify as male. I have PCOS. I object massively to having my medical history appropriated to prop up someone else's dubious political attacks on the group to which I belong.

Hairy - try asking a trans woman.

Natwebb
I have done. But I was asking you - surely you have an opinion else your argument would be "women and MTT must share personal spaces because of no reason whatsoever"

You're the one advocating for women to not have bodily privacy from MTT people. Why though?

I assume you have a rationale for what characteristics MTT and women have in common that make sense for them to share intimate space? And why it is simultaneously understandable that women sometimes need privacy away from men?