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Original poster

Transwoman using women's loos at work

999 replies

CharlieSierra · 16/09/2016 20:20

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours. Sad

OP posts:
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19
HairyLittlePoet · 17/09/2016 16:31

I feel sorry for anyone who wants to reject their own body and would hope they got the help they needed to accept themselves without being encouraged to change.

My sympathy stops dead when they insist I accept that I, a woman, am the same as them, a man, because they have decided we share brain gender attributes (we don't) and my anatomy can be replicated on a male by a surgeon (it can't) and my experiences are irrelevant (they aren't) and my sex doesn't matter (it does).

What is the difference between men and women? Can any trans-ally answer that question?

natwebb79 · 17/09/2016 16:33

I suppose I view trans women as female because the trans people I know identify so strongly as female that it would seem ridiculous not to. Two have had gender reassignment surgery and no longer have a penis, one is waiting for surgery so still has a penis but can't bloody wait not to have. I also teach a female to male transgender student who I have forgotten is 'biologically' female to be honest because anybody who didn't know would definitely assume he is biologically male. Personal experience I guess. Watching them go through their painful journeys and the ridicule, bullying, barriers they've faced makes me respect them greatly and the very least I can do to support them is respect their identity.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 17/09/2016 16:38

Go on the trans soldier thread Nat and see how the trans movement is hurting women. And you are also hurting, by your support for illogical TA agenda

Beachcomber · 17/09/2016 16:38

Thank you for answering natweb.

So if I understand, you view transwomen to be female because they really really want to be female? (By which I understand that you don't actually believe them to be female).

What is your definition of female?

Beachcomber · 17/09/2016 16:41

It's interesting that the transwomen in your circle either don't have their penis anymore or are keen to be rid of it.

Chances are they don't practice autogynephilia.

Bluebolt · 17/09/2016 16:47

I do think that when a subject is so close to your heart it is hard to objective without feeling disloyal. I have never met a TW who I have had any reason to fear but I have unfortunately met a few man who would use the self identification to gain entry. Luckily one is serving two years so the world is slightly safer. Self identification is my line in the sand.

ThatsWotSheSaid · 17/09/2016 16:49

I've been out all day and have only just caught up on this tread. I'm still feeling sad. I can't address everything that's been said but the main points I think have been whats a woman well that has never been a clear cut thing biologically or socially. I don't think there is only male or female on any measure. Could a hermaphrodite use male or female loos?
would I be happy with my daughter showering with three penis's being naked in front of children or anyone anywhere is fine by me and the law but if your intent is to alarm or distress then it is illegal and I believe wrong. Three MTF trans women all using a communal shower at the same time would alarm and I don't believe anyone would do it if they did it would IMO be okay for the establishment to ask them to leave. And if there was a suggestion of some sort of sexual crime they should be arrested.
In terms of rape crisis centre and women's shelters I personally believe there should be more provision for men in these environments anyway. Men and trans people who are raped or abused by men or women should also be offered help and support. Because most victims are women there is virtually no provision for men. Not all men are rapists. The vast majority are not. Should we treat all Muslims like terrorists or all vegetarians like animal welfare extremists?
My main point is this - if you are reading this and you are a feminist/trans person/new to Mumsnet person please do not think this accurately represents the views of Mumsnet/feminists/women. I don't believe it does. These threads largely get ignored by more liberal Mumsnet users through fear of the kind of shouting down you may have read up thread. There are more inclusive feminist places else where on the Internet. Lastly OP there are many tricky questions when it comes to trans rights vrs women's rights and it would be lovely to have an open conversation about them. That will not happen here. What ever the answers are to all these questions you taking it out on the lady at work isn't going to help. Use the unisex toilet yourself and you don't have to worry about anyone else's penis.

HairyLittlePoet · 17/09/2016 16:49

Natwebb79

Can you explain though, what your transgender friends (who are male, despite surgery) have in common with women in a way that explains why the women should have to share private spaces with them?

What is the common factors that MTT and women share that means it makes sense for them to both be described as female?

There isn't any sex or gender characteristic I can think of that I have in common with a MTT person. We are utterly different. It can't be justified.

Crystal15 · 17/09/2016 16:49

I don't personally see the problem. However what I do have a problem with is you referring to another human being as 'it'. Fair enough if your not comfortable with the set up, but there's no need what so ever to be so cruel about it. Also you don't know that she is peeing like a man would. I should imagine as she has decided to use the ladies toilets she wants to do so like a female too.

Bambambini · 17/09/2016 16:50

If transfolk are just trying desperately to quietly lead their sad, tortured lives under the radar - why are the views below becoming so visible and mainstream?

Transwoman using women's loos at work
HumphreyCobblers · 17/09/2016 16:54

"My main point is this - if you are reading this and you are a feminist/trans person/new to Mumsnet person please do not think this accurately represents the views of Mumsnet/feminists/women. I don't believe it does. These threads largely get ignored by more liberal Mumsnet users through fear of the kind of shouting down you may have read up thread."

I am one of those liberal, inclusive feminists who has had my eyes opened to this very worrying issue thanks to threads like these.

Three MTF trans women all using a communal shower at the same time would alarm and I don't believe anyone would do it if they did it would IMO be okay for the establishment to ask them to leave. surely the worrying thing about this issue is that there would be no ability in law to require these MTF to leave?

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 17/09/2016 16:54

Who has said 'it'. If you think a post is offensive, then report it. I haven't seen anything except logic and facts. And accusations of meanness from TA supporters

HermioneWeasley · 17/09/2016 16:56

that'swot can you please not appropriate intersex people to justify the argument that men should have access to women's spaces

We are a sexually dimorphic species. Intersex conditions affect about 1/1000 people. It in no way explains why people are are unambiguously one sex or the other experience gender dysphoria. The existence of intersex conditions does not mean that sex is a spectrum.

MaudGonneMad · 17/09/2016 16:56

My main point is this - if you are reading this and you are a feminist/trans person/new to Mumsnet person please do not think this accurately represents the views of Mumsnet/feminists/women. I don't believe it does. These threads largely get ignored by more liberal Mumsnet users through fear of the kind of shouting down you may have read up thread.

All the Spartacus threads would suggest otherwise, actually.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 17/09/2016 16:56

Humphrey

I too am one of those liberal women who have had their eyes opened to this issue by MN. We are not alone.

I am Spartacus

HermioneWeasley · 17/09/2016 16:57

Exactly humphreys in fact asking those men to leave would be a hate crime.

HermioneWeasley · 17/09/2016 17:00

The idea that the only women who object to this are hard core rad fems is such nonsense.

Most women aren't aware of what's happening. When they're told they are appalled.

WinchesterWoman · 17/09/2016 17:00

Watch and learn, watwebb and neon. Watch and learn.

WinchesterWoman · 17/09/2016 17:02

Also Beachcomber's questions: A definition of female or woman (that doesn't include the words 'female' or 'woman'.

e.g. anyone who feels like they're a woman.

Not that because it's not a definition.

MatildaOfTuscany · 17/09/2016 17:03

Please take the time to read that extract Bambambini has published as a screenshot - it is a MTT transactivist telling lesbians they are transphobic prejudiced bigots if they will not entertain the idea of having penetrative, penis-in-vagina sex with a MTT who identifies as a lesbian. Like I said upthread, rapey as shit!

Crystal15 · 17/09/2016 17:04

How is it logic and facts exactly?! You share toilets with lesbians, are you afraid they will rape you or are looking under cubicles like the OP previously suggested about the trans female? No because that's obsurd too. All the Real crimes against women in the world and this, really?!

WinchesterWoman · 17/09/2016 17:06

No I'm not afraid lesbians will rape me. Lesbians don't commit the vast vast majority of sexual and violent crimes.

No I'm not afraid they'll look under cubicles because lesbians don't commit the vast vast majority of voyeuristic crime.

Does that help?

HermioneWeasley · 17/09/2016 17:08

Excellent minimising crystal

I have no objection to sharing with other women because they are women and facilities are segregated on the basis of sex, not gender identity or sexuality. I don't want to share changing rooms with gay men that have no sexual interest in me.

But there are plenty of examples of men /TW secretly filming women when they get access to toilets, changing rooms etc.

I haven't googled because I dread to think what I'll find, but is there a single recorded incident of women covertly filming other women her own sexual gratification?