Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

Idiot' observation. You saw it coming.

Sadly. I try and point it out but within a few posts they dig their own hole

What are the numbers of trans women convicted for raping and assaulting and fetishising women in women only spaces in the uk? I mean, you must have some proof of the over whelming numbers that inspires such terror in you all? Genuinely interested.

Cross post natweb. I don't know how you can think the way you do. I genuinely can't. I'm sorry you were raped.

Hermione - A man could be filming you anywhere. So do you not wear a bikini on the beach in case a man films you to get off on it? Or go swimming? Where do you draw the line?

nat and neon

I assume you feel the same about all men then? Because as I said before, our next evidence is that TW commit crime, including violent crime, at the same rate as men. Transition doesn't change it.

So, if you wouldn't be happy to shower with a man, share hospital wards with a man, a prison cell with a man, you shouldn't feel happy about doing it with a TW.

Also, just because you're super cool with it, why do you think you should get to make the rules for all women. What about Muslim women? Should they just STFU about male bodied in their previously woman only space?

I asked the same further down, Neon. I don't think anyone has answered yet but I am genuinely interested in the response.

I draw it at women only spaces, personally

"But it make me so bloody mad that I am told that I am being mean and hysterical because I object to males in women's private spaces because I am scared. And I have good reason to be scared"

I'm not scared - i'm just furious that we are being forced to believe and accept falsehoods. It's like if fundamental christians got in power and changed laws to force us to pray, force us to go to church, force us to submit to our husbands etc. The insaneness of it is making me fucking furious.

it's bad enough that women hating men are laughing their socks off at getting rid of TW from their spaces and foisting them on women who now have no choice in the matter - but women are actually buying into this as well - and i used to be one of them (hollow laugh) untill i started actually looking into what different sides were saying and what the logical outcome of accepting males can be female would lead to.

And the queues for women's loos are fucking long enough without now adding anyone who feels like a woman to them - another thing women haters will be rubbing thrir hands at.

Not all of them neonrainwbow.

Only the ones who practise autogynephilia in public.

nat the fact that men might be filming anywhere doesn't mean we should make it easier.

This TW used Target's policy to secretly film an 18 year old girl in the changing rooms. Might be have done it anyway? Possibly. Did Target allowing them to be there make it much easier? Definitely.

Hermione - The difference between you and me is that I don't view trans women as male. I personally feel a bit self conscious in communal showers anyway so have always showered when I got home but I haven't heard of or experienced a trans woman with a penis showering in public with everything on show so can't really comment. The OP was about a trans woman being able to have a pee in a locked cubicle in a ladies toilet full of lockable cubicles. I can't really get too excited about that.

I do wonder if any Muslim leaders have realised the impact the changes will have on Muslim women and girls. I would hope they would object to them rather than curtail the lives of female Muslims.

What are the numbers of trans women convicted for raping and assaulting and fetishising women in women only spaces in the uk?

Makes no difference to me.
I dont want to share a womens only space with a man. It is not about crime stats it is about my right to not share a private space with a man.
Why is that so difficult to grasp? And why does saying tgat earn me the title of bigot/transphobic?

(My completely subjective opinion is that) no woman who has been raped would feel safe with men in their changing room. It's not fucking possible.

There's been a second case at Target just in the last couple of days.
Of course when it happens at Target it gets widely reported now because of the boycott. Most voyeurism never gets reported - I never reported mine (not a transwoman, just a bog standard bloke).

"Might be have done it anyway? Possibly. "

I'd say definitely. So that's one out of how many? This reminds me of Britain First showing examples of Muslims being violent while ignoring the millions who are innocent. If somebody on here can show mw statistics of trans women committing violent crime as a result of being allowed in female areas then I may change my mind. Isolated incidents don't really prove much. I was raped by somebody I knew in my own home, my friend was dragged into an alley way and raped. If a human wants to do damage to another human they will find a way. Most don't want to though and that's what I prefer to focus on.

nat it doesn't matter what you "view" TW as - they are male. It's fact. You can be of the view that TW are female and the sun goes round the earth and you can build a ladder to the moon and that women's mental illness is caused by wandering wombs. Knock yourself out. But current evidence says you're wrong. TW are male, they are a subset of men, and they retain male patterns of criminality and violence.

No come on now izzy i answered your question. Where is the evidence of all the sexually deviant transwomen?

nat we repeatedly get told that THIS NEVER HAPPENS. And then we say - look, it's happened. And then it's minimised - "oh, it's only one. Rapists are going to rape anyway. Voyuers are going to secretly film and so on"

So how much female suffering and abuse is acceptable collateral damage to you? Please, put the number on when you wou,d sit up and take note.

"(My completely subjective opinion is that) no woman who has been raped would feel safe with men in their changing room. It's not fucking possible."

As you say, that's your subjective opinion. In a public changing room I would have no issue with a trans woman changing in the same room as me. As far as I'm concerned it was the person who raped me, the penis was just what they used to do it. I'm not scared of people with a penis being in the same space as me. If you're enough of a sicko to want to violate somebody in that way then you will find a way.

I don't view trans women as male.

What does that actually mean Natweb?

Can you expand?

Do you regard them as "not male" as in some sort of third sex?

Or do you believe transwomen to be female? (If you do can you please define female.)

And where do you think autogynephilia fits into the above?

Actually you didnt asnwer my question.
I pointed out 2 laws from the last 100 years that have been changed and you came back with TW are protected against discrimination. Well so is everyone. That is not a TW specific law.

The stats really dont matter to be and i doubt they are very high at the moment because currently there are still some laws in place that protect female only spaces. That said do you think those stats would remain low if any penis could just wander in to womens spaces?

Nat - Many many of us on this thread can't get excited about that.

But it sets a precedent, and if toilets are ok, what about changing rooms etc.
Everybody seems to draw their own line at various points along that spectrum, BUT the law won't allow any woman to voice her discomfort at this. Everybody's line in the sand will be irrelevant.

I don't know many tw tbh, and none well, but the tw I come into contact with most seem like decent sorts who are happier now. Good for them - genuinely.

But I am not happy to leave giant loopholes for predators to exploit. There must be a better way. Unisex facilities would be a good compromise,I feel. But that is not acceptable to the transactivists (as distinct from your ordinary transperson on the clapham omnibus). They don't feel like compromising at all, despite the fact that they also know what it is like to be frightened of men.

nat
In a public changing room I would have no issue with a trans woman changing in the same room as me.

Good for you. How does your not having a problem with it make you insist I have to? Or my daughters?

"And the queues for women's loos are fucking long enough without now adding anyone who feels like a woman to them "

Ok you might have just convinced me, ha!