Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

But you obviously don't give a fuck about women if you are condoning forcing women to accept what you think is ok re their safety, even though they don't and are frightened.

that identifies as the wrong sex

Not possible. Sorry.

You cannot identify as something that you have no understanding of.
Its like me saying i identify as a black women. I am not black. I have no experience of living as a black person therefore i cannot ifentify as one.
I can however wear traditional african dress and call myself an african name but i will never ever be black.

WW
We should call Bingo when we are told that we are being:
hysterical
vile
mean

WW where are you getting this from?
Are you saying that women who have been raped can't refuse a trans counsellor?
Women can ask for whichever counsellor they want and get it. They really can.
I'm not trying to be ignorant but I've now tried to scroll back and see your other posts and this is the only one you've specifically mentioned the counsellor being a trans woman.

So I don't acknowledge that because it's not true. I don't know where you're getting this from.

And I'm going out now so if I don't respond please don't assume it's because I agree with you, because I think you and I are never going to agree on this.

Ibelieve

or

'i can't stand this bigotry i'm going'

HOUSE

Oh dear, another one who can't handle a hard dose of logic. The doublespeak is strong with this one.

Ibelieve, I don't think a trans woman using a toilet next to me is compromising my safety. They're going for a wee.

So yes, the rest of you please call bingo because that is hysterical.

Yes mycat yet you get to say you are the one who is liberal and empathetic in all this, even when you are supporting the trampling over women's rights and our right to feel safe. That doesn't matter a fuck to you when there are men about wanting to trample on that

MyCat?

I don't think a trans woman using a toilet next to me is compromising my safety

YOU dont think that. Well great. Good for YOU.
However there are many women that dont think that and i will stand up and say NO MORE for those women because they deserve the right to feel safe in a place where penises/men have and should not be allowed.

MGM & WW I've answered you but all you come back with are snide comments and haven't acknowledged my opinion.

And yes I'm going out. Not because I can't bear you but because I'm GOING OUT. I have other things I have to do today, I can't sit and type for hours on end.

Although I am beginning to wonder why I bothered. This has been a few hours of my life I'll never get back and it's not a debate because I'm answering your questions but you're not answering mine. So when I get back I doubt I'll look at this thread again, so take that as you've won and I've gone because I can't handle being got the better of. If that makes you feel better about yourselves!

So are you more important than me then mycat. I don't feel safe in that situation. What do we do now? Or should I STFU because your opinion and feeling trumps mine?

You're not answering our questions. You're dodging and ducking and flouncing when the internal contradiction inherent in your position is pointed out.

beachcomber is spot on

Either you respect the right of women to say NO regarding bodily privacy or you don't.

Simple.

You and I both know that you didn't answer the question.

Hellokitty " Hate the posting of a few mtf with beards as if they were the rule. "

No one is saying that they are the rule. What we are saying is that the proposed changes in the law will make it impossible for the law to make a distinction between transwomen genuinely trying to pass as women and fade into the background, "me me me, look at me broadening the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman" transwomen (who I personally have severe doubts are actually transwomen) and sexual perverts who want to use "but I'm gender fluid and felt like a woman last Wednesday" as a defence against charges of voyeurism and indecent exposure. The last of these groups will have every bit as much legal right to be in women's spaces as the first two groups, and there will be nothing any woman can do to challenge that.

Do I believe that the motivation behind TW wanting access to women's spaces is always so they can prey on them? No. Do I believe all TW are perverts and sexual predators? No. But I do believe the following:

• TW are male (fact not belief)
• if male people are allowed access to spaces where women are vulnerable and undressed many will exploit that (numerous cases to back this up from peeping & secretly filming through to sexual assault.)
• there is no reason to believe that TW are safer to women than any other men. And a fair amount of evidence to suggest they're just as dangerous
• many TW are sexually aroused by thoughts of themselves as women and being in women's spaces. As beachcomber says, I should have the right not to participate in their fetish.

How about if a rape victim wants a woman doctor for a smear test? The thought of the implications of all this - it's just baffling that anyone, anyone thinks this is acceptable. never mind women themselves. There's a lot of 'I'm alright Jack' here.

"I'm alright Jack" - absolutely. To pick up on hte issue of cervical smears - I've heard it said that you can turn down any medical practitioner, for any reason. Well, yes you can. But the NHS is under no obligation (barring doctors with moral objections to abortion) to provide you with an alternative. So racist great auntie Gladys can turn down a doctor who is BME, but the NHS doesn't have to find her a different one. Do we want rape victims to be in the same position? "Yes, you have an absolute right to turn down an internal exam from someone with a penis, but we don't have to provide you with an alternative..."

But it make me so bloody mad that I am told that I am being mean and hysterical because I object to males in women's private spaces because I am scared. And I have good reason to be scared

This will limit women. Like the post above said - 'if you don't like men in the work loos - go to Starbucks'. But what if they're in Starbucks? What if men are in all the loos? And all the changing rooms? And the showers? Will women think twice about swimming, about staying out of the house longer than, say four hours? They'll be told THEY must change their behaviour rather than the men feel a bit under-validated. Because, you know, we must validate the men. Women can just fuck off home.

Why should WE go to starbucks? Why cant TW go there?
Why must we, women, who have this pace designayed to us because of tbe sex we were born go elsehere because it has been taken over?
Why are men not told "dont like TW sharing your loo, get yourself of to starbucks"

Oh i know why because men get to make all the rules.