Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

[BertrandRussell]

Because I am beginning to think that i will never be able to say anything about trans issues without being accused of being transphobic.

It seems to me that in some cases trans rights are just incompatible with women's rights. Obviously then, someone has to step aside- and if I want the ones stepping aside to be transwomen then I am being, I suppose, transphobic.

So has the time come for feminists to say to trans women "I support you to live the life you want to. I will stand up to and with you against people who abuse you and are violent to you. I will call you what you want to be called. I will defend your employment rights, your right to housing and any other "social" service. I will defend your right to appropriate medical treatment. In fact, I will defend you and support you in anything up to the point where your rights conflict with and take precedence over the rights of women. From that point, my allegiance is with women.

If this causes you to call me transphobic so be it. I will continue to support you up to that point regardless."

How do you suggest we move forward Blistory? By abandoning any fight or protest about women's spaces and women's identity? The "bathroom threat" is also about privacy and dignity. I'm sorry if you feel it's counterproductive to what you personally feel should be the focus and I agree that endless discussion on MN is not the most fruitful thing to do, but I think it's got people to think, and that's a good thing. I'm not really sure what you expect people to do. And with all due respect I think you're actually being quite patronising yourself.

Agree it's a siege mentality.

venusinscorpio ah, yes, totally misunderstood, sorry.

For all the recent brou-ha-ha, I still do deeply appreciate that for the most part MN hasn't shut this discussion down, when it has been shut down (or nobody has dared to start it, because they'd be risking too much) everywhere else.

Buffy - you said this earlier: "If gender is an innate identity, then people who are transgender are the most oppressed. If gender is a hierarchy, then women are the oppressed group, however they identify in terms of gender."

And that's the crux of the problem I think. I don't know how we resolve the fact that we're approaching gender from opposite ends of the telescope

No worries, Annie. Yes, me too, I very much value this female space that doesn't "centre" trans women. Their problems are different to ours. I say this as not a mother, but a woman who experiences the biological and social reality of being a woman every day. And any squeamishness about natural female biological processes is obviously not ideal here.

I'm sorry if it was patronising but there have been some posts stating clearly that it's all to be laid at the feet of liberal feminists, that you cannot be a feminist if you believe x and that feminists are contributing to the erasure of women.

Not only do I think the trans discussions are going nowhere but some posters are now so entrenched in their positions that they are attacking other women and feminists simply because they don't take offence at the same issues.

It's bad enough having trans activists telling me to sit down and STFU but now I have other feminists on MN effectively doing the same.

As a liberal feminist, I firmly believe that the answer lies in how our political and legal systems deal with this. The law is currently on our side and I don't think we are as close to the transactivist nirvana as is being portrayed. We live in a democratic society where we are free to lobby and ask our representatives to support us. There's a lot of lip service being paid to trans issues by those in positions of power - that's not the same as beliefs and legislation - far from it. There are plenty of ways to get across real and genuine concerns but we lose any influence we could have if we're perceived to be bigoted and transphobic. Framing the debate in terms of women is very different from doing so in what can only be perceived as an attack on what is considered to be a vulnerable group.

You might disagree but FFS let other feminists and women contribute to the debate without feeling like they have become the target of your anger.

I will stand by you and with you all in this fight but allow me to do so on my terms, not yours.

I'm not expecting you to stand with me, necessarily. I'm just expressing an opinion. And I'm not sure why this is all directed at me, just because I said I found your comments patronising. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Please tell me specifically which of my posts you have an issue with and I will engage with you in a perfectly polite discussion about it. I can't promise I will agree with your view though.

I'm not expecting you to stand with me, necessarily. I'm just expressing an opinion. And I'm not sure why this is all directed at me, just because I said I found your comments patronising. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Please tell me specifically which of my posts you have an issue with and I will engage with you in a perfectly polite discussion about it. I can't promise I will agree with your view though.

I'm not expecting you to stand with me, necessarily. I'm just expressing an opinion. And I'm not sure why this is all directed at me, just because I said I found your comments patronising. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Please tell me specifically which of my posts you have an issue with and I will engage with you in a perfectly polite discussion about it. I can't promise I will agree with your view though.

Oh dear

And the only reason that people are saying here that they feel that feminism is incompatible with completely embracing trans rights and therefore pro trans liberal feminism is problematic for them is because that is the exact subject of this thread. You think it isn't, others disagree. That's allowed, isn't it?

The attack on the wrong type of feminism is across the trans threads, not just this one.

And the reason it matters that we stand together is because this needs all of us. This isn't a debate where we can afford to alienate other feminists and women.

Blistory I wonder if there's an element of projection in your posts. You seem to be doing the very thing that you're accusing gender critical feminists of. Your tone is reasonable but for all that, the theme that seems to run through them is 'it's our way or the highway'.

It all seems to be a bit one way though, don't you think? These particular liberal feminists we're discussing aren't falling over themselves to compromise with gender critical feminists or understand their viewpoints and concerns, are they?

This is probably for another thread but being gender critical is common to both radical and liberal feminism. Liberal feminism bases a lot of theory on the concept that a gender structured society IS the patriarchy.

Liberal feminism does not equate to liberal and more than radical equates to gender critical.

And no, it's not my way or the highway. I'm not shutting discussion down but asking that you open it up. I'm as sensitive to criticism as anyone so I can see how it comes across but frankly there's a bigger picture than the one being painted on here.

Yes Venus I feel that the statement
'the trans discussions are going nowhere'
really means
'no arguments left over here as your case is watertight so it's time to attack your tactics'.

That's the way it feel to me Blistory I'm afraid to say

I didn't know what other term to use. I think it's fairly clear what type of person I'm talking about.

My posts didn't say that but you feel that it did ? Feelings over facts ? Rabbit hole indeed.

And that might be petty but I am that pissed off with how unwelcoming trans threads always become.

You are contributing to that Blistory. No one likes to be tone policed or told off like a naughty child.

How opened up though? There would be red lines for me and I'm sure you have yours.

Mine are
Transwomen are men.
Men are not allowed in women only spaces that are segregated to protect women.

What would yours be.

There must be something we can actually do to get these concerns recognised. The men are driving the bloody bus. We need to stand in front of it and say "hang on, what about us?"

My line is
Trans rights - yes absolutely.
Trans rights that erode women's rights - no.

Yes, that's my line too. I am not going to willingly concede women's spaces.

Yes Harlot yes - better put than me.

Venus - "You are contributing to that Blistory. No one likes to be tone policed or told off like a naughty child."

Comments like this alienate me. I am interested in the subject and would like to ask questions. As someone who is gather evidence before forming a clearer position this thread is very unwelcoming.