Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

[BertrandRussell]

Because I am beginning to think that i will never be able to say anything about trans issues without being accused of being transphobic.

It seems to me that in some cases trans rights are just incompatible with women's rights. Obviously then, someone has to step aside- and if I want the ones stepping aside to be transwomen then I am being, I suppose, transphobic.

So has the time come for feminists to say to trans women "I support you to live the life you want to. I will stand up to and with you against people who abuse you and are violent to you. I will call you what you want to be called. I will defend your employment rights, your right to housing and any other "social" service. I will defend your right to appropriate medical treatment. In fact, I will defend you and support you in anything up to the point where your rights conflict with and take precedence over the rights of women. From that point, my allegiance is with women.

If this causes you to call me transphobic so be it. I will continue to support you up to that point regardless."

[WitchingHour666]

I'm sorry Buffy, I was not trying to upset you. I was only dismissing pomo theory, not you personally. Don't feel you have to go because of that.

Of course you are right that trans want to change language, and shape debate. Though the point I was making is that it is because of those very ideologies; pomo and queer theory, that trans has taken hold and is harming women. They are part of a massive backlash against feminism. To fight oppression one has to acknowledge that there is some truth, a material reality. Which is why women define what a woman is in material terms. We also have to acknowledge that ethics exist. For example that harming others or ourselves is wrong. Using pomo to analyse what is going on here is somewhat futile, because it is that very theory that is the problem. i.e. It can't identify the problem, because it IS part of the problem.

This is the crux of the issue of why young people can not understand that they are being exploited. The issues are not as complex and difficult to fathom as those ideologies make them out to be. Pomo was invented to obscure what is really going on in the world. i.e. By denying truth and ethics exist or getting us to focus on other things, oppression can continue to flourish. It is like a magician using misdirection while they slip a handkerchief up their sleeve. That is what I was trying to get across.

I was also trying to point out that when one uses a solid class analysis like radical feminism, it is much easier to see what is going on fairly quickly. As it views females as a material, static group and therefore offers a clear way of understanding the situation. A class analysis recognises that it is vitally important for women to remain united, and fighting for our very basic right to name ourselves. It enables us to realise that if we don't we become colonised by the oppressor. We don't need to decipher anything, as one would with pomo. As the purpose of a class analysis is to reveal power dynamics between groups, so that we can fight them. Unlike pomo whose goal is to conceal or deny power dynamics between groups exist, so we can't fight them.

[WitchingHour666]

Regarding the legitimising of BDSM and postitution, yes thats been going on for a while, it is because queer theory is a libertarian ideology. It was invented to enable men to do whatever they want sexually. So all fetishes are given the stamp of approval. They can get over any criticisms levelled at them by saying they were just 'born this way' and so claim to be an oppressed group.

I agree 'agency' and 'choice' are used to justify what benefits men i.e. Prostitution, BDSM, AGP etc. This is because men have the power to shape the narrative because they are on top of the hierarchy, this is why it is important to have a class analysis rather than a pomo one. Power isn't distributed equally, or randomly, it is in the hands of the ruling group, or those further up the hierarchy. You can use pomo to find the disputed area, sure, but I think it becomes self evident with a class analysis. A class analysis acknowledges the ruling group always really has the power. So a white heterosexual man, by pretending to be a member of a victimised group can disguise that he is really a member of the ruling class. By doing this he can carry on oppressing and getting whatever he wants unfettered and escapes being called out on it.

This is also true in the case of prostitution, it is the men who treat women as commodities by purchasing them, that are exploiting and oppressing these women. Men want to disguise that it is them who are exploiters/oppressors, by portraying prostitution as a harmless 'choice', or as a job like any other etc. While portraying themselves as just contributing to a woman's livelihood, they can then escape criticism. They go further to obscure this by using a reversal; they call women who talk about the harms of prostitution oppressive. And accuse us of contributing to making these women feel ashamed. It is simply manipulation (or gas-lighting) which many oppressors (and abusers) use. In truth the women only feel ashamed because they are engaged in a practice that lowers their sense of self worth. To accuse feminists of being oppressors/haters by calling us phobic, is to hide the real problem that causes these women to feel ashamed. Which is men exploiting and degrading women by using them as sexual objects for purchase.

In short they use manipulation to disguise that they are oppressors and instead portray themselves as the victims. It is what a ruling group does, in order to carry on ruling/oppressing and escape being called out on it. All ruling groups use manipulation, and concealment in various ways to carry on ruling undisturbed.

[WitchingHour666]

I agree with what you have said Matilda. Though I honestly think we need to get away from pomo, it is like trying to swim with a lead weight dragging you down. I think a class analysis is the best way to understand the situation, and radical feminism provides that. The fact is what we are experiencing now is a backlash against feminism, women first have to be aware of that. The idea of transing, that porn is harmless, prostitution is just a job option. That the sexualisation of young girls is about freedom of expression. That BDSM is a fun choice, or an innate desire that has been unfairly maligned. That plastic surgery is empowering etc. All these things are part of that backlash against feminism.

They are made intellectually acceptable and justified by the male leftist ideology of queer theory. Which (along with their invention of pomo) renders women incapable of realising it and fighting it. Through a radical feminist class analysis, we can understand the reason men have done this; because they want to use us for sex. They can't come out and just demand that women do this or that without looking like oppressors. So they use manipulation (these ideologies) to fool women into allowing men to do whatever they want. And to get women ourselves to do whatever pleases men. The granting of Mtt's access to women's spaces does not just serve individual het men who have AGP or who want to practice voyeurism, flashing ect., it is just part of a bigger project men have. Leftist men want to keep us in the bedroom.

The male right also wants to control women. They generally are more concerned with keeping women out of public life and confined to the home. They have also got an ideology gaining traction at the moment; evolutionary psychology, which claims that the sex roles are innate.

So women are under threat from both the male left and the male right, because of the gains we made in the 70's. They have used the science that they have at their disposal to make these ideologies seem more legitimate. For example they use neuroscience to come up with 'brain sex'. This is used to give more credibility to these ideologies, as the 'natural' sciences carries more prestige than the social sciences. There are numerous ways that science can be manipulated to come up with the results these men desire. At present it is mostly achieved by using small sample sizes.

In the victorian era very similar ideas about female brains were used to keep women in our place. And the idea that homosexuals were born in the wrong body, led to various horrendous 'cures'. The same was also said about races and strikingly similar experiments were performed to prove the existence of a 'negro brain'. This was part of the eugenics movement, that started very similarly to how this situation is manifesting. With the sterilisation of children that is taking place, I think the similarities are difficult to ignore.

It also serves the drug companies, who can sell hormones to these people and make money off them. Psychiatry is dependant on the drugs companies, so they will do whatever benefits them. Psychiatry itself also has a long and sinister history of harming people, particularly women and homosexuals.

[WitchingHour666]

In regards to what needs to be done. I think we need to have a clear analysis that all women can access and understand, that you do not need a degree to decipher. Puzzles are fun sometimes, but have no place in a rights movement.

I think we need to remain adamant that we will not be defined by men, a strong stand has to be taken. We need to reject queer theory and pomo and call it out for what it is; manipulation. These men are at present only a small percentage, if we build up a strong women's movement we will out number them. Like Errol said there are not that many feminist groups around at present. Even if you find one they are often not efficient, due to absorbing queer theory. Which is why we need to build our own from the women we know. Then there are various means to reach others. This I firmly believe is what must be done, it is the only way to fight it. Men, the powerful drug lobbies and politicians are the establishment. The establishment wants this to happen, it benefits them in one way or another, so trying to convince them to do something is futile. It is like trying to reason with a sweatshop owner that it is fair and right to give the workers more money. He has nothing to gain from doing that, so won't unless forced into it.

We need to convince other women to stand up, that is where the focus has to go. Otherwise we will be where we are now in 5 years, but only with a whole load more of our rights erased. Which will make it even harder to organise then. We must make the commitment to forming groups by talking to women we know. All women who share our ethics; anti, porn, prostitution and see women as a sex class defined by biology should be welcome. Rather than this queer theory identity politics nonsense. Women who are mothers of school age children, can easily be made to understand that this ideology is damaging. Many lesbians are sick of het men hassling them and want to do something about it. It isn't necessarily that there is a lack of women concerned, when they are made aware of the issues. Instead there is a lack of organising in my opinion. And the idea we can't do anything about it, or anything we do will be too small to make any difference. This is not true, what may seem like a small thing, for example meeting with 3 or 4 women friends to talk about these issues at a coffee shop. Adds up to a big thing, when a lot of women are doing the same thing, and these small groups all come together.

That is my opinion, I am aware I have taken up a vast amount of space with my posts, so I'll leave and give others room.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Men on the right want each woman to belong to a man. Men on the left want women to be available to all men. That's about it.

I'm a lefty but the misogyny in the Labour party is very disheartening.