Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

[BertrandRussell]

Because I am beginning to think that i will never be able to say anything about trans issues without being accused of being transphobic.

It seems to me that in some cases trans rights are just incompatible with women's rights. Obviously then, someone has to step aside- and if I want the ones stepping aside to be transwomen then I am being, I suppose, transphobic.

So has the time come for feminists to say to trans women "I support you to live the life you want to. I will stand up to and with you against people who abuse you and are violent to you. I will call you what you want to be called. I will defend your employment rights, your right to housing and any other "social" service. I will defend your right to appropriate medical treatment. In fact, I will defend you and support you in anything up to the point where your rights conflict with and take precedence over the rights of women. From that point, my allegiance is with women.

If this causes you to call me transphobic so be it. I will continue to support you up to that point regardless."

Why does that comment alienate you, precisely, Bitofacow? This thread is specifically asking whether completely embracing trans rights is incompatible with feminism. It's a discussion thread, so please do feel free to discuss the issue. There are probably better threads for asking questions, but go for it. Just maybe don't tell other people how they are allowed to express themselves or what they should focus on. That's rarely a good idea.

I might start endlessly reposting the government response to the trans enquiry. It's all in there.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/535764/Government_Response_to_the_Women_and_Equalities_Committee_Report_on_Transgender_Equality.pdf

Hi there bitof, there have been lots of other threads, perhaps try there. I've learned a lot by simply reading. It's most noticeable that complaints about tone generally begin after people run out of any case or argument to make for what they believe in.

I think we're all frustrated. But that is the nature of these threads. People feel passionately about the issues.

I believe in women. Front and centre, every time, every day. I made a vow on here a while back that I would focus on doing right by and for women. In my private life, in my work life, in all of my interactions.

Winchester, you seem to have assumed that I am not a gender critical feminist. Perhaps you should consider that not all gender critical feminists share your views instead.

I don't see how it's possible to reconcile the point of view that gender transcends biology with the point of view that gender is a construct that doesn't really exist.

Venus " maybe don't tell other people how they are allowed to express themselves or what they should focus on. "

I might be missing something but isn't that what you are doing? Telling me what I should do and how I should do it.

As a lurker there seems to me to be a lack of open-minded engagement. A touch of rhetoric creeps in. Just a thought.

Venus it's so dreadful. Those recommendations of self certification and full acceptance as the opposite sex.

People who hate women are behind this.

On a positive note, Theresa may is no Maria Miller and I do not believe she will prioritise it.

well I haven't liked some of your tone Winchester and my views are gender critical. So that's not accurate.

Yes I think I have made some wrong assumptions then. So your red lines would be the same as mine?

It was merely a suggestion which you're free to ignore. Given your work on the porn thread I think you're perfectly able to deal with an unwelcoming atmosphere, Bitof.

More than happy to engage with you on the actual issue, Bitof.

I'm trying so hard not to NATALT. I don't see why we have to say it every single time. Maybe that's why my posts feel blunter. Why apologise and qualify when my views are straightforward? It is what it is.

Venus Well I'm glad my work has been noted. I am just nowhere near as well informed on this issue.
My lack of knowledge makes me hesitant to jump in and I think others may be lurking and hesitating. Discussion is good even if you don't agree, especially if you don't agree. Shouldn't it be encouraged?

It's good to have your views challenged it focuses your mind and hones your arguments. Welcome it.

I don't think anyone is saying this position (the subject of this thread) can't be discussed. I am more than happy to discuss it.

I don't want to make feminists argue or annoy people though so I'll back to listening for a while. No hard feelings - I'm so grateful to MN feminism for the clarity of debate! I don't want to muddy the waters.

This is going to sound patronising and I really don't mean it to but no, life is way more nuanced than 'it is what it is'.

When good people turn away and don't want to listen anymore, then you need to look at not just what you are saying but how you are saying it. You may still conclude that you are right but it merits taking a little time to consider and reflect.

I've contributed to the alienation of many on here previously with regards to trans issues and I'm sorry for that. My approach had clearly been wrong and some of my views had been stated too forcefully. Winning the argument meant losing my way and maybe my posts in the last few weeks have been about finding my way back to being both the feminist and the person that I really really want to be.

Here goes....
I'm great believer in fudge and compromise clear cut cases and hard views don't reflect life.
Some trans women are clearly hijacking a cause for their own reasons. The majority of trans just want to blend. If you are already different taking a loud stand must feel impossibly difficult.
Is a feminist one thing? I fail as a feminist in some areas but excell in others do I get thrown out of the club?

Trans rights seem to be where gay rights were 40 years ago. Peter Tatchell 40 years ago was not the moderate (?) voice he is now. Will the first push of trans activism fade as it becomes more 'normal' - poor word choice I know.

Blistory's point about employing acute strategy to effect change is a sound one, I've made the same point myself in other groups. But actually, i do believe there's also a valid purpose served in howling into the wind. Women need to vent. Freely. Sometimes, they need to speak bluntly without moderating their words. Requiring all of us to bear these injustices with dignity and persuade the decision makers with our niceness and general all round reasonableness is not realistic. There needs to be a multifaceted approach to have maximum effect, and there's more than one flavour of activism needed.

We need diplomats, protestors, civil disobedience, writers, bloggers, media savvy manipulators, viral marketers, lobbyists, academics and strategists.

We need to find angles. The methods needed to convince academics will be far removed from the methods employed with the social media generation.

However, mumsnet is not a strategy forum, and many threads here are purely discussion, plain and simple. That in itself serves a purpose. People read, engage, lurk and think and minds are changed. We've seen this happen here.

We do need to be more strategic. But a bit of righteous anger and venting is healthy and speaking one's mind here on MN may be enough of a release to enable people to get back in the ring and fight again.

Thanks Buffy. Maybe I have been arsey and if I can't even tell then I'm definitely in need of a day off

Yes, you have your views and opinions about the best approach, and other people have others. Perhaps you yourself should look at ways to say what you want to say without being patronising which is not generally the way people like to be interacted with. You don't own this argument. And I am well aware that I also sound patronising. So be it but I wasn't the first person to use that word about people here. It's always best to interrogate one's own actions first, that goes for you as much as anyone else. I think this is a bit of a derail to be honest, though a natural one given the subject of the thread.

Yes hairy
I am also finding I'm losing track of all the threads. As someone else said upthread, the way bert posted the OP asked contributors to nail their colours to the mast so it's not surprising we've got polarised views.
bitof again with equating gay issues to other issues! I think my POV is on here already so I'm not going to repeat myself, but the aspect of "a trans person IS the sex they identify as" is very different to gay people wanting freedom to form relationships as they wanted.