Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

I don't think that's off topic at all giraffe. For me, the way in which men are so blithely oblivious to the things women face can be really...disappointing - challenging sexism can seem such an impossible task when half of the population, the half that tends to have more freedom, power and money, couldn't be bothered even noticing it.

Plus, because men have been trained to see their viewpoint as The Valid Viewpoint and women are trained to submit to what men think, men's obliviousness to sexism can lead to a sort of gaslighting situation where women are told that what they see and experience and feel simply isn't real - it's a total headfuck.

It would help enormously if the half of the population with the power would actually listen to the other half of the population, without brushing their experiences of discrimination off as "paranoia" or "an isolated case" or "it happens to men too you know".

You're right Sparrow, it is gaslighting. I've never noticed that before.

I have had so many men tell me outright how I feel, what I think and what I should believe. And they feel no discomfort with doing that - they just state with authority that 'this is the way things are.' The arrogance is astounding. And if I've ever pointed out that actually I also think things that might be a bit different to what they think, given that I have my own mind, life, etc, they act like I've told them something truly disturbing - the reaction is quite baffling.

Yes yes yes at Boldlygoingsomewhere

"For me, the way in which men are so blithely oblivious to the things women face can be really...disappointing "

What I find equally disappointing- and utterly baffling- is why, when those things are pointed out to them, they don't say "Bloody hell, that's appalling! I'm so sorry- what can I do to make sure it doesn't happen again?"

Gaslighting. Yes, it really is, isn't it :(

Bit late to the thread as I've been working up the courage to post for the past few days...
In recent years it's been dawning on me how pathetically grateful I was in my teens/early twenties for male sexual attention, whether I wanted it from that particular man, and how often I gave in to sexual advances because I felt like it was expected, and would make me popular, or something. And how much I would pretend to be really enjoying sexual experiences that were frankly a bit shit, and I was probably a bit ambivalent about having in the first place, in order to make men feel good about themselves and like me more. Shit, i feel quite sick thinking about it now. I was at university during peak "lads' mags" era and wondered if this was part of it - that my male peers were busy wanking over these airbrushed, unrealistic female images that we were totally surrounded by (hell, my female flatmates and I even used to read them ourselves! That's how cool we were!), and yet they also wanted to have sex with me - so I should feel flattered at the favourable comparison. Or something. Yuck.
This reared its head in a major way last year when I'd completely gone off sex post-dc1 but found myself accommodating dp's desires. Then I suddenly went wtf - this is my life partner; I don't have to fake enjoyment in order to make him happy!! But I realised how much I was conditioned to do it, even so many years later. (When we talked about it he was horrified and upset that I might feel the need to do that btw, he's definitely not the problem).
But yeah, pretty grim really. I so wish I could give my twenty year old self a good talking to about consent and body autonomy, and do something to boost her self esteem.

Yes exactly Bertrand - it's the complete denial or the disgusted bafflement that really winds me up because I think the reason they don't respond saying 'what can I do to help' is because they see any suggestion that the world is any different than how they perceive it to be as a personal attack, made worse by the fact that the person challenging them is a woman, someone whose viewpoint can never be trusted.

Woo that was long, sorry!

You are most definitely not alone in that one pigsknickers. Thank you for sharing your experiences

I think a lot of men probably also think "but I'm not like that" and don't think about what their silence means (basically, that they approve of the status quo).

When it comes to rape, murder etc most men can legitimately think 'but I'm not like that' but when it comes to everyday sexism IMO there is not a single man alive who isn't complicit.

Pigsknickers your post resonates with me so much.

I remember once this guy I was in love with took me back to his place for lunch. It was obvious he expected a quickie. He had porn playing in the background and I told myself I should feel complimented that he wanted to have sex with me.

Ugh ugh ugh! If only I had Mumsnet FWR then...

It just seems to me that anyone who reads #manwhohasitall for a week has no excuse to say they don't understand everyday sexism!

Thanks for replies. I got a bit upset writing that so it's good to know I'm not alone - although obviously it's crap that it's a "normal" part of the female experience...

I think it's pretty standard to be honest, not that that makes it any better I know. Even now, with my very lovely DH, I feel guilty if he tries to initiate sex and I turn him down. He makes absolutely no fuss at all, but I've been programmed to believe that I owe him sex and to turn him down is somehow unfair.

Absolutely, but most of the posts on everydaysexism are slightly more extreme, so men who don't catcall or yell out of car windows at teenage girls count themselves as not "one of them". Recognising your own prejudice/privilege is very hard to do, mind you.

I agree that recognising your own privilege is hard, but I think men in particular are trained to believe that everything they have they have, not because the world is an unfair place and things are tilted in their favour, but because they are entirely entitled to them. The suggestion that in actual fact they're playing the game of life on the 'easy' setting is taken as an insult to their talent.

We are lucky enough to have two bathrooms. One is designated a male bathroom the other female. The female bathroom is cleaned by women the male bathroom by the men of the house (not entirely serious). My 2ds see their father cleaning a toilet and they help him. So far, so feminist.

The standards in the female bathroom may be slightly higher😕, but I do not do the 'girl thing' of saying "oh men! I better to it". They are getting there.

So when guests come I inform them and give them a choice. The men laugh, ha ha ha. Some women disaprove and say:

How can you live with it ? (it's not a health hazard ffs)
Can you trust them to do it properly?
I Couldn't sleep in a house if I hadn't cleaned the bathroom
How can you put principles before hygiene?

All are direct quotes.

The suggestion that in actual fact they're playing the game of life on the 'easy' setting is taken as an insult to their talent.

Yes, this is very true.

We get this at work. Some of the blokes in charge take offence at the idea that they've had some kind of assistance and that their position is not entirely down to their own innate brilliance. There has been a major backlash of late against various diversity initiatives and I suspect this resentment about the so-called meritocracy being questioned is part of that.

What I'd like to tackle now is the way in which women take on board misogynistic messages such that they don't even need to be enforced. The kind of thing I'm thinking about is when an inappropriate sexual comment is made at work and the woman knows she won't be taken seriously so she convinces herself she's ok with it, to her own long-term detriment. I want to challenge that and say, out loud, that no one has to ever put up with being belittled, sexually harassed and mocked at work. Ever. No matter how 'funny' her colleagues find it.

Yeah. There's an argument against quotas because "don't you want the best person for the job"?

As if we are supposed to assume that the best people already are getting the jobs and it's just one of those things that only around 20% of the "best people" are women in, say, FTSE boards.