Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

I was lucky. I grew up in the 60 s and my Mum and Dad were I guess fairly progressive and shared the housework etc. In fact often my Dad did more as he was home from work before my Mum. The shock for me came when I left home and started adult relationships with men who had grown up in patriarchal families. I thought for a long time it must be me who was in the wrong,insisting on equality and asserting myself.

DH and I share household chores. He hoovers the house, cleans the bathrooms, irons, does financial stuff, cooks 2x a week, takes bins out and we share the gardening.

When he's done a chore I have to fight the urge to say Thanks.
I shouldn't have to thank him, we share things and he doesn't always thank me every time I do one of my chores (he often does, especially cooking).
Yet I try to find a way to compliment the chore [Oh the hall looks really good!] without actually thanking him as though he's doing me a favour.
That annoys me.

I have noticed how frequently I revert to male as default. I consciously try to call the duplo figures man or woman interchangeably, and the woman with the flower on her top is often the train driver.
Low point - calling a full-uddered cow "he".
I do a weird thing where I blurt out "... or she..." after I've just male-defaulted all over the place.

I will be watching this thread with interest.
Great idea OP!

You forgot another impact Buffy - if I don't have the house in a relatively fit state (lucky my mother is fairly un house-trained, and my MIL has given up on DP and I being conventional), then they will help me out

Which of course means a job is either done how I wouldn't have done it, or badly done, or I feel that I have to pitch in and help... When really, all I want is to get them a cup of tea, and let them play with the kids.

The cards and presents thing is another area I really struggle with, which is also portrayed by men as "silly" and unnecessary. I don't think DH would ever consider giving Christmas and birthday gifts to his (much younger than him) cousins or his sister and her family.

So I choose, buy, wrap and post presents each year for his family because I think it's important to let them know we're thinking of them and we miss them (they live in another country). DH is oblivious to this type of social obligation and how social cohesion from all of these little things actually benefits everyone. He tells me not to bother.

I managed to extricate myself from buying gifts for his parents but he still plaintively asks me every year what I think I should get for them. I don't bloody know! The present choosing part of my brain is tired from all the other choosing!!

I deliberately don't know when DH's parents' birthdays are.

He spent a few years watching me carefully selecting nice flowers for my mum from interflora, buying stuff from Amazon for my dad (we live far away) and now actually seems to have got the hang of it himself.

I did get some remarks from his mum early on about it being his dad's birthday soon etc, so I just said I'd let him know, didn't know if he'd got him anything yet etc.

Of course, I could say "fuck off out of my cupboards you crazy dirt obsessed old bag"

Oooh, wouldn't you love to?!

My people pleasing is out of hand. After years of spending literally EVERY single special occasion, including my own birthdays cleaning the house and cooking for in-laws (same reasons as above, H not bothered), I am STILL cooking for my PIL every week - despite having separated from husband.

I think I'm atoning for being a woman who has broken up her family. It has actually been pointed out by a friend that it's unusual for a woman to choose to break up the family home, she could never do it. My family and friends feel sorry for him.

My mum's answer to the guilt about leaving is that I can help stbxh feel a little better, buying him his favourite foods etc. Like it's still my role to look after him.

I get the point about rational/emotional. I'm feeling pissed off about it - I know it's not right. I just need to shed the obligation/guilt feelings.

You haven't 'broken up a family' myown, you've decided to end a relationship that wasn't right for you. A marriage isn't a prison sentence to be endured, it's a voluntary contract that you are 100% entitled to end. The idea that once you sign a marriage contract that's it for life no matter how miserable you are us horrifying - who would want to subject someone to that? Your friend is wrong by the way - more women than men initiate divorce in the UK.

Your exh and exPILs are exploiting you. Tell them to fuck off.

*The cards and presents thing is another area I really struggle with, which is also portrayed by men as "silly" and unnecessary. I don't think DH would ever consider giving Christmas and birthday gifts to his (much younger than him) cousins or his sister and her family

Sorry posted too soon.

The cards and presents thing is another area I really struggle with, which is also portrayed by men as "silly" and unnecessary. I don't think DH would ever consider giving Christmas and birthday gifts to his (much younger than him) cousins or his sister and her family

I haven't the faintest idea what the birthday date is of any of husband's family. I've never sent cards or presents to any of them at birthdays or Christmas. It never occurred to me to do so. If he did it himself before he met why would I take it over? If he didn't do it before, why would I start?

Lass why do you come on these threads just to imply everyone's feelings are invalid? What do you get out of it?

That's great, Lass. Add that to the many reasons why you're not a feminist and see no need for feminism.

But a moment's thought would reveal that there are many women who have not yet reached your point of enlightenment and are struggling with stuff like this.

Buffy: it isn't really a great solution to the judging the wife but not the husband for cleaning thing, but a few times I have had a general tidy but left things that are in a bad state but are chores assigned to DH (rather than doing his jobs too or standing over him before a visit). But then if MIL says anything I make sure she knows that is his assigned job. In general I don't really like not being a 'United front' with my DH, but in this I feel that if he is so willing to be judged on mess, he should be the one actually getting judged (I still get judged too, for living with the visible mess) - bring united in consequences seems fairer there.

Yes I agree that it's the compulsion (to tidy or buy presents or whatever) that's the issue. I feel the same. Hence the often-discussed fact that "equal" in a relationship re sharing of the load of running a life often means "equal" at a task level but not a mental effort level.

It might be because female social conditioning to care and nurture and maintain social bonds is actually a really important underpinning of a happy productive group environment for a social mammal. But it is very high effort, and quite complex (witness the many many MN ettiquettey threads about all sorts of social interaction and what's correct or not). So not something men are wildly keen about taking on, as a generalisation. But everyone benefits from it, so attempts to drop the workload are fought against.

it's a voluntary contract that you are 100% entitled to end.

Off topic but interesting you say this. I am this weekend going to return to the divorce application that stalled because the supporting statements i provided weren't sufficient to warrant a divorce.

I will tell them to fuck off one day but maybe when I have a job, maintenance agreement and some form of independence.

A bunch of 10-11 year old were throwing things around in a toddler play area a while back. They were a school football team on an outing. There was only one girl in the group. When it got out of hand and I told them to calm it down, guess who I addressed my comments to? The girl. I was so horrified when I realised.

That's a totally valid point about the statement myown - the idea that you have to 'justify' a divorce is mad - surely the only justification should be that one or both people want to end it?

What do I get out of this ? I'm trying to understand why despite on the one hand the idea that women's lives are constrained by the patriarchy is a given on here , there seems to be an acceptance of "oh well, that is just the way it is , far too difficult to change"

Why turn yourself into a doormat or a domestic servant?

What suddenly changes when you meet a man? And why is this change irristiblle?

You are all intelligent women but why aren't you standing up to these assumptions?

If your partners were capable of dealing with family birthdays etc before they met you why do they lose that ability?

If they were not capable/ not interested why does it become your problem?

Why facilitate this apparent loss of ability? Were you asked to take on these burdens or did you just assume them because you think you are meant to?

awaits with bated breath Lass' eHow article on how to resist everyday manifestations of one's female socialisation without additional emotional or physical labour>

There seems on threads like this very little attempt to resist it- if anything burdens are assumed and then complained about.

You (general you) want society to change and be less patrirachical. That seems an unlikely outcome if matters within your own homes under your own control can't be changed.

I accept that you're trying to understand Lass but you're clearly failing. No one is 'turning themselves' into a doormat. What people are talking about here are the subtle, often hidden assumptions and forces that influence their behaviour.

How do we change it? Talking about it, as we're doing here, is a good first step. You coming here claiming there's no problem is not helpful.

Also I did clearly say in the OP that this thread is for feminists Lass. If you want to discuss your own views, start another thread please.