Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

How do we change it? Talking about it, as we're doing here, is a good first step. You coming here claiming there's no problem is not helpful

But you are not changing it are you? You are talking about these subtle assumptions, doing a lot of complaining about them but apparently doing little to change them.

Threads like this make me think you are living in a time warp in the 1950s.

Ok thanks for your input as ever Lass.

I'm sure you don't care in the slightest about my input but that is my view and it's not really for you to dictate who can or can't post.

If feminism can't, after all these years lead a woman to say "sod cleaning the oven/ buying your mother's birthday present/ tidying up because mother in law is visiting" without feeling guilty then , to me, something has failed.

I'm not a mother in law but if /when that happens I sincerely hope my son and daughter in law don't specially tidy up for me. Should the house be a mess I will however assume it's my son's fault not my daughter in law's ( as he is as untidy and lazy about domestic matters as his mother)

Ok thanks Lass

I don't disagree with your view Lass. How did I become such a "doormat" bothers me. But it's not really helpful and I try not to speak to myself in those terms.

I'm maybe not typical of others here because my life is more than just a feminist failure... but it's hugely reassuring to read intelligent informed articulate strong women posting their own issues. As is the acknowledgement that resistance takes work. Thinking about the role of socialisation very much feels like a good first step to change.

If feminism can't, after all these years lead a woman to say "sod cleaning the oven/ buying your mother's birthday present/ tidying up because mother in law is visiting" without feeling guilty then , to me, something has failed.

Well, yes. But I'd phrase it a little differently. Feminism hasn't "failed" but it has not yet attained its goals of the liberation of women from these expectations. We're not there yet, as threads like these demonstrate. It's not about an individual failure on behalf of those of us who aren't happy with how our domestic lives are arranged. The systemic limitations (I'm avoiding using the "P" word) are recognised, we can see them, but that's not at all the same thing as changing them. Some women have broken free of them, some don't find them burdensome, but that's not necessarily due to their personal limitations or failures. You can't know the factors that make it harder for one woman than for another.

It's like telling someone they're fat or they drink too much. from the outside, the solution is obvious - eat less, drink less. But the simplicity of the solution does nothing the address the complexity of making lasting change, or the circumstances of their life.

Bugger! part of a sentence disappeared.

"Some women have broken free of them, some don't find them burdensome, but a lot of women do and that's not necessarily due to their personal limitations or failures".

Thank you for that explanation FreshwaterSelkie.

Well said Selkie

Feminism hasn't "failed" but it has not yet attained its goals of the liberation of women from these expectations

How much longer do you want? For example every Christmas produces threads on here bemoaning the difficulty of buying presents for husband's distant relatives.

At what point (if ever?) do you stop blaming systemic limitations and take responsibility for what you will or won't do? If you don't, you are perpetuating these limitations- why would the person being freed of these tedious tasks take them on when apparently there is some one willing to do them?

How much longer? As long as it takes

The point is that there isn't someone willing to do this shit. And it damages relationships - not just husband/wife relationships, but whole family dynamics. Why can you not see that? honestly, I give up. There's a lot of stuff I agree with you about, bu you're the "all lives matter" of the feminist board, sometimes, you really are.

How much longer?

I don't know. And I agree that women are part of the problem.

Particularly women who put their fingers in their ears and refuse to accept that the choices we make are not "free" but influenced by the society we live in, and the models of femininity we were brought up with and are sold by th media.

If we were already deprogrammed and could blithely fling off the shackles of societal gender-based oppression simply by choosing not to do things like tidy the house before the in-laws arrive, then we wouldn't need a thread to discuss it, would we?

It's a bit victim-blamey to say "why are you still doing these unfeminist things you stupid women". Do you also sit on the Relationships board, Lass, and tell women who have been systematically emotionally abused that you don't understand why they're making it so complicated, they should just leave?

Well, exactly sentia. People like Lass who say 'why don't you just...' are part of the problem as they imply that women are stupid for 'going along with' what's expected of them. Thing is, if you don't go along with it, then you risk disapproval, comments, outright criticism, marital issues, embarrassment and all sort of unpleasant things that most people strive to avoid. If it really was as simple as just not doing it, then women would simply not do it. We're not idiots.

sentia I too thought about the relationship/abuse comparison. I struggle with differentiating between abusive and feminist/patriarch issues.

Taking responsibility feels empowering because it takes you out of victim mode but in my experience created a feeling of self loathing. it takes more strength I think to acknowledge the influences on your behaviour and your weaknesses (susceptibility better word?). Im guessing it is much more difficult to learn how to change behaviour patterns if ignoring a significant element of the cause.

How on earth are you supposed to change harmful patterns if you don't understand where those patterns came from?

That's what I meant Sparrow. Just didn't express it well.

I was agreeing with you! Sorry it didn't come across well

Ah OK. A more assertive version of my sentence. I could do with that sort of translation in RL!

Place marking for later :)

Jumping into the middle of an ongoing conversation but can I mention body hair. My 11 year old asked me to shave her 'tother day. We have talked about this A Lot, she was happy with her body and had a thousand quips until they wore her down. I just shaved my kid's armpits just because she is female. Anyway, I didn't pick up the card buying crap for dh's family but despite caring for my fil when he died at home I am Judged for this, my greatest crime.

Chalk me up as another who has trouble with default he.

Discussing it is a step to changing it.