Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

I would also like to say to women: by having a baby you are doing a wonderful, difficult thing. You are not an inconvenience to men's lives. You do not have to do everything and be everything to everyone to the detriment of your own health. You deserve your own life and leisure time as much as anyone else.

Oh and you never ever have to wash another adult's clothes if you don't want to.

Calling someone out on an office about 'jokes' is soooooo difficult in your twenties. Now I am confident enough no one dares to say anything.

I work with young people and have had some young men defend female contemporaries against sexist comments. Once secure they will not be dismissed and laughed at the young women in question have found a voice. It is a pleasure to watch.

This has some interesting points on the problems with "merit" as a way of deciding who to promote or hire.

One thing I read somewhere was if you've got a man who thinks he splits the housework fairly "Actually I usually do the cooking" - ask who usually cleans the toilet.

Jesus the fucking bathroom. When we moved into this house 6 years ago I told DH I'd done enough bathroom cleaning and now it was his turn. The torture he put me through with that fucking bathroom. Jesus fucking Christ.

And if he does clean the toilet some other women may judge you.

I am a keen baker for fun (so far, so stereotypical). I was talking to my dad, an educated educator, whom I would never consciously think of as a sexist.

I was telling him how I failed to make a lemon meringue once and the filling was a disaster.

He said to me, "What you need to do is make the lemon filling first, let it set, and then lift it as a solid and put it into the case afterwards."

That is not how you make a lemon meringue pie. I asked him if he had ever made a lemon meringue. He had not. He had never even read a recipe for a lemon meringue pie.

Yet somehow, he felt it was OK to explain to me what I must have done wrong. Mansplaining is real.

(But my dad is still lovely.)

There are a lot of social hierarchies constructed around who deals with dirt and mess, aren't there? I'm just pondering. It's never the people in charge who do the cleaning. Particularly cleaning up other people's biological mess.

I was re-watching Star Trek DS:9 recently, and at one point Quark and Sisko are discussing Sisko's prejudical comments about Ferengi. Quark goes on about how Humans had slavery, concentration camps etc. and we're all supposed to go, wait a moment, perhaps the Ferengi aren't so bad, perhaps Humans are the bad ones.

I started seething, paused it and ranted at DP that it was a ridiculous plot point - Ferengi keep their women naked and at home, unable to travel or make profit. Ferengi enslave half their race, they even use it as a plot line in more than one episode, but there the script-writers were, not even slightly aware of the humungous double standard.

Excellent mansplaining! The other day I was discussing an aspect of my country's culture (I'm not British) with a British man. He proceeded to tell me that he disagreed with my view since he'd seen a tv show made in my home country and in his opinion it showed something that contradicted me. It was hilarious, and he apparently had absolutely no compunction writing my knowledge off.

For me the cleaning double standard is that no-one expects someone in an office to hoover and clean their working environment, but if you're working in a home (ie a SAHM) then that's a luxury and lazy

Thinking about it.. all the jobs where cleaning is expected as part of the role, are primarily women .. nurse, shop staff, nanny, hairdresser... I need to think about that more!

I posted about housework in Relationships this week. Another poster explained really well about how clean a man's toilet is being a deal breaker.

Back to Sparrowhawk's point up thread - there are so, so many times I've witnessed a woman being complicit in her own or others' sexual harassment - I've done it myself plenty, in order to avoid confronting the uncomfortable fact that it's happening. By laughing along with the joke/pretending or even convincing ourselves we're enjoying the attention or experience, the awkwardness is diffused and we don't have to deal with the depressing reality of what's actually happening. I did this so much when I was younger, rather than acknowledge (even to myself) that I was a victim of harassment.

And it's interesting that when people say they share the household work, if you drill down it's very rare for a man to do the low level, day to day mundane jobs- they do DIY, or service the car, or mow the lawn, or put the bins out. Or cook Sunday lunch.They don't cook children's tea, or wash up or make packed lunches, or sort out school uniform or feed the guinea pigs. Or nit comb.

So unless you need new shelves put up every day, or have 365 cars..........

I remember going out clubbing in my early twenties, it was pretty much guaranteed that I'd be groped. Hideous, but there were always so many people it was impossible to tell who the perpetrator was.

I also remember dancing with friends in a group, and whenever one of us got persistent unwelcome attention from a guy we'd silently absorb our friend into the middle of the group and then back out on the opposite side to the creep. That happened more times than I can remember, and we never once spoke about it or challenged the lowlifes.

evil giraffe- dad is 20 and that describes exactly what she says goes on now.

So depressing that it hasn't changed.......

I can't really complain on the housework front since DH does actually do most of it.

But my god the fucking toilet. I don't know how I always get saddled with it.

Entirely frustrating too to witness the difference between the toilet where I lived at home, in a household of three women. DM was the one to clean it then but she isn't very domestic and probably didn't do it very often, maybe once a month??

But living with two males there is pee EVERYWHERE. And it's not even like they don't aim. It's just that DH literally refuses to believe that when you stand two feet above something and pour liquid into it that drops escape. FFS. But I'm the only one who notices the fact it stinks so I'm the only one who ever cleans it.

It's 10x better since we moved to a place with one of those weird floaty toilets without a base - it doesn't need doing every day any more - but it's still annoying.

My dd has a pixie cut at the moment, which she loves. She's 11 and just about to start high school. She's scared because on her induction day some boys and girls were making fun of her choice to have short hair - looking her up and down and jibing her. It makes me really angry that such a simple thing as hair length should make her a target. Nearly all girls of her age have long hair.

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Oh that is easy be born on the autistic spectrum, peer pressure just washes over you, well it does me.

I was thinking about the hair thing today. It's more than just fashion, I think. It part of the hyper-gendering that goes on with children from even before they are born with all the blue/pink distinctions, etc. When I was a child a lot of girls had pixie cuts, at least as many as those who had long hair. I have not seen a girl with short hair in ages. It's really disturbing to know that those who do are belittled and teased because of it.

I have no idea what the post above is referring to. I am not autistic, never claimed to be autistic and have never once commented on any matter relating to autism.

I have my own views on this idea of "deprogramming" (which frankly I find an utterly depressing and infantilised idea of being an adult woman ) but what has to do with autism escapes me.

Sorry Seneca the "post above" is not yours but PassiveAgressives referring to autism.

Senneca - it seems to be a peculiarly UK thing as we noticed many girls her age with short styles when we were abroad last year. She had people asking if she were a boy or girl - even though she wore a skirt!