Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

Mine are really petty. I am normal weight and always want to be slimmer. Do I shave my legs because I truly think it necessary or have I been brainwashed? I sometimes wonder if my eyebrows need attention. They are perfectly good as eyebrows go, but still not neatly arched... I would never admit to any of these in rl.

Of course, I could say "fuck off out of my cupboards you crazy dirt obsessed old bag"

Oooh, wouldn't you love to?!

Well, I for one would hope you don't. "Old bag" is an ageist, as well as a sexist, slur.

Quite right. I wasn't thinking.

Great thread! I was basically brought up to believe that men were more important than women. My mum was v subservient and my dad treated her like a servant. I was so scared of ending up like her I've never got married or had kids. I'm ok with that but I still manage to get myself into relationships where I put the man's needs before my own.

I'm also quite feminine which I enjoy, I like clothes, make up etc but wonder if that is just because women are so valued by how they look that you have to play the game? I wouldn't have the confidence to not wear make up and dress down as I feel there would be negative consequences. Like not shaving body hair for example.

I'm also pretty untidy and sometimes justify it to myself by deciding it's a feminist act of rebellion!! 😀

I also resent how women sometimes police each other in terms of what's acceptable behaviour. I went for a job interview this week and a friend said to me, don't show too much cleavage. ( I'm quite busty ). I didn't say anything but thought WTF? Like I was going to turn up looking like Bet Lynch!

Just place marking as this is fascinating.

I have a Dad who is very progressive in lots of ways, but who is quite set in gender roles and gets uncomfortable when they're messed with. He was brought up In a very traditional Jewish household and men were very much pandered to.

My Mum is considerably (decade plus) younger than him and especially in the last 20 years has worked really hard to challenge some of his ideas (has made him into a bit of a domestic wizard and made us all do our own washing and stuff) and he even was a STAHD for a while when I was 10-15ish after he was medically retired and she went back to work and forged herself a good career.

However some things he still sees very much as "his" thing... He does all the driving for instance and doesn't take kindly to being driven around by his wife or daughters, he won't iron... Sees that as woman's work, and during my two horrific HG pregnancies where I was hospitalised often, has made comments to Mr. Fell about how horrible it is for him that he's "doing everything" or "sorting out his own dinner" etc. These are a real reflection of his general attitudes but show an underlying sexism that is obviously seriously ingrained. And annoying!! Luckily he is the only male in the family by some margin and has a wife, daughter, granddaughter and nieces who continue to challenge his bullshit.

*not a real reflection! Freudian slip!

Oh and daughters!!! Sorry, it's early!!

I find I subconsciously clock what women wear and how they look all the time. I don't do this with men. They can be scruffy, smart, fat, thin, tall, short, bald and it doesn't really register (unless there is something unusual about their appearance like they are wearing a mankini ). I only noticed this recently - after I'd become more involved with feminism.

Some of it I suspect is because I'm a woman and I'm comparing other women to myself. Some of it is undoubtedly around no matter who a woman is and what they do, society has expectations as their appearances. I've taken that message on board loud and clear. The fact I feel the need to compare myself to other women is probably partly tied up in this too rather than just a natural competitiveness/comparison.

And I feel I certainly used to have a really positive body image. Weight, diet etc was never mentioned when I was growing up. I wasn't overweight. I was very sporty and pretty muscular at my peak. But definitely in the last 15 years all this has changed. I've felt ground down.

I suspect as well I passed the "patriarchal fuckability test" (thanks Stewie) when I was younger so had no need to doubt my appearance. Now...not so much!

Thank you so much for this thread. It absolutely sums up the shit I am struggling with at the moment.

And of course, it's actually more practical than doing/not doing things, isn't it? If we say "well, we just won't mind abut this stuff" aren't we back to saying that the men have it right, and we don't? Like the earlier thing about being in touch with DH's family - yes, I could leave it. But then my only child with no cousins on my side of the family and a few aging relatives on the other side of the world would have no family whatsoever apart from his parents. Not being in touch has ramifications far,,far beyond what they were when DH was single.

And yes, I struggle with the default he, and with thanking DH for doing stuff (I can feel him expect it!!) and asking him to do anything.mhe hasn't been well for a couple of years plus had a horrendous job, so I took the lion's share of housework and childcare. Now that things are better, I think both of us have no idea what 50/50 really looks like. It's taking a long time.

People pleasing is a real problem. I have stuffed up major, major life choices because I thought what other people want is more important than what I want. As well as the small stuff; like an earlier poster I have a major paper to write while on holiday. But who is doing most of the childcare?...

It's good to know I am not alone.

scallop that's so true, I only really thought about it the other day when I sat on a beach for a few hours. If someone had asked me to describe the women I could, not so much the men. I wasn't criticizing or even comparing but I was clocking the women, what they were wearing, body shape etc, the men were also clocking the women. It was hard to see my 11 year old draw the male gaze too, she looks older than she is and is moving into the "fair game" age.

There's a girl in my DS's class whose dad does all the school pick-ups, and who organises her birthday parties. I've just realised that I've always assumed he's a single dad, something has happened to the mother (I don't go to the parties, that's DH's job so I don't know if there is a mum). I've also thought 'good on him' for organising birthday parties for his DD.

WTF.

On that note noble check out these cleaning products for men

Apparently they are coming to Sainsbury's.

Cleaning products for men!! WTF??

Yup, and they're called Hero don't cha know.

Well of course, a mighty man who lowers himself to help unworthy slatterns with their housework is a true hero.

Indeed, and the scent is manly. The manly man who invented them said he was inspired to as the only products on the shelf were for women, with girl scent like, um, lemon. Poor men have been excluded from cleaning for all these years, we've been hogging all the good stuff and making it girly, yuk!

I must admit I didn't realise I was being heroic when I was cleaning the sink.

Of course you weren't being heroic Lumpy! Don't be silly! Depending on the how much it suits men, you were either doing absolutely nothing or you were fulfilling your womanly duty.

All of men's actions, up to an including murder, can be heroic.

Women's actions are insignificant, pointless, silly, slutty, not slutty enough, etc etc etc

Not read the whole thread yet.

Dd noticed really early on that every character in her books was make. I try to re gender lots of the characters so that there's a decent mix of female and male characters. The default does seem to be male in so many books, TV shows and films. Trying to do the same for ds.

When I got a new job I really pushed for more pay (got it too). I think men (on average) feel much more comfortable asking for pay rises than women so I pushed myself out of my comfort zone.

On the whole dh wasn't as organised when the kids were small because I got more practice due to mat leave.
When he took the kids out I would leave him to it to organise things. Didn't step in to "rescue" him. He forgot nappies for the baby but he managed (another parent helped).

"Covers every cleaning emergency, from your bedroom to the garage."

Your bedroom? WTF?

It makes me very cross when marketeers deliberately segment the market by male/female. Ok, so it might have the effect of increasing sales by convincing people that you have artificially doubled the market, but is it worth the social cost of further embedding limiting concepts of gender norms into everyone's idea of what it means to be a person? This is exactly the same kind of bullshit that afflicts the toy market.

Excellent post, sentia.

Cleaning products for men is utterly depressing.

I think my house is fairly evenly split for housework - I'm a SAHM while DH works, so I can keep on top of laundry and tidying in the day. We share cooking and hoovering. Mind you, I don't think DH has ever cleaned the bathroom without being asked.

I realised how much I expect all things to be described as male the other day, as I was surprised at DD1 (aged two) describing everything as female. I suppose this is because she spends her days with her mother, sister, and our cat (also female), so hears female pronouns more. Except on telly.

A PP said So although I feel supported by him, and I know he's a great role model for the DCs - still sometimes I'll see something on tv that's sexist and I know it's passed him by because it just doesn't register. So he noticed sexism if it's blatantly obvious or if I point it out- but the million subtle ways women are undermined are not seen.
I feel much the same - DH is a feminist and an excellent father, but sometimes I will notice poor treatment of women and he will be totally unaware.

On social media I see a lot of pro-feminist articles, often about how aware a dad is of ingrained social gender inequalities and his combatting of them. I think it's both interesting and depressing that these often begin with "as a father of daughters I think X ". Are even sympathetic men so completely oblivious to the way their mothers, wives, sisters and friends are treated? Did they not notice or just not care?

Sorry, wavering off topic a bit there.